Alright.
Alright, thank you so much Deborah we really really really really really really appreciate you spending the time with us this afternoon. Words wouldn't be an artist attitude and you know out of your busy schedule you've taken out this time.
the way of introduction My name is de la, la karate I'm a second year masters of health informatics students, but I work as a research assistant at that so that's my own sort of collaboration, and we came from Nigeria just as just by the way, I mean I
love Africa. And I love my experience so far to him, and we get to also you know share in some of your great experiences and then you know we're in the middle of telling the story of death over 50 years and wanting to keep that history is something that is central
to that community as a whole and then why we are doing this project in the first place. So just by way of Baton this interview this afternoon, we just want to know a little bit about you some background information, just how it started and where it all
started from So, where are you from, initially and then what and when you What did you study at your VM and when did you come to them to study.
This is
great. I was, I was actually born in New York but left, you know, two or three, and I grew up in Los Angeles.
So I went from Los Angeles to Massachusetts to Williams College for undergrad, and then straight after directly I came to Michigan for graduate school.
So I'm supposed to tell what year I came there.
No problem.
It was 1978 studied social social psychology.
The Psychology program I think still is the department is huge, and even social was a huge sub area.
So while I was here I took the extended approach, because I worked at the at the Institute for Social Research Program for research on black Americans and work done the National Survey of black Americans National Black elections study, and that whole
process, under leadership of James Jackson and others became program for research on black Americans.
And I guess I don't know how I first kind of got into it was cast, you know, when I was there, but knew a lot of the faculty at Cass.
And so started in 83, I guess, working with the era as a research assistant.
On the conference, the immigration conference.
And so what's interesting kind of full circle.
I'm back at Michigan back at the program for research of black Americans with the project.
Hashtag week Global African Americans living abroad. So really interested in African Americans who are currently living abroad. So I'm doing that.
That sounds interesting you know that's that's some good work. So just to clarify for them, where you find the PhD program there.
Yes, I started the program.
Along the way I got the Masters just because you know, but it was the, I was accepted into the PhD. Okay Okay, perfect.
Yeah, that really touched base on this a little bit but before I just probably asked for further clarification. so I remember, I think. Half past started in 1977 58.
Yes.
Yeah, so
I think my question would be, what was your experience like doing those of you know, a black program or how you know we begin to define identity What was it like a black student at U of M when you came up with your own personal experience,
I think.
I don't know if my experience was unique or different. I think coming into the social psychology program. And I think there's some statistic that the Michigan program produced the most social psychologists, any place in the country, there was, there was
a definitely a critical mass of African American students in the social psychology program, being hooked very quickly into the National Survey of black Americans with James Jackson Belinda Tucker Philip Bowman, Jerry GERD.
There was a this interdisciplinary team.
And so it definitely became a family I mean we work together we party together we studied together. And it reminded me that feeling reminded me so much of what I heard some of the students that may be the level maybe you said it.
The 50th anniversary, that das definitely feels like a family. Thank you. And so that's the feeling that I had, and felt very supported in that way.
Since I know I felt very comfortable at Cass.
And just, you know, hung out because I knew, Nisha I knew Walter Allen. Tom hold the era, you know, I think lineal was the head at one point.
Mr. Johnson, at some point, yeah.
And then I remember it because I found a picture. Even my kind of going away party when I finally did leave and Arbor.
That was lo.
And I found pictures of me giving a going away party to Nisha, I think it was an 83 when she first left at my house.
Oh, so.
Yeah, it was.
It was good, it was a long time ago. Yeah.
Thanks for sharing that you submit stories that we want to view yeah and then during creation.
Just to backtrack a little bit, I want you to tell us more about, you know, your collaboration. You had mentioned and how you got some later stops with Nisha, can you tell us a little.
Is that the only engagement you had with cast. At that time, or do you have some other things we've been doing with past or some other engagements or collaborations basically.
So I think the first collaboration was the work on the immigration study, hoping that was an 83, and I was a research assistant to Dr. Dr. Carson.
So that was an 83 and then I was trying to find some, some paperwork on this I forgot when the University of Michigan developed this partnership with the National University of Sydney.
It was around eight Hmm, maybe 83.
So,
yeah, it was either 83 or 84, early 84 that three faculty came from National University opening to Michigan. One was a psychologist and I work with him, Professor Yay, and we developed this huge project to do at the National University beneath.
So I went as kind of under that umbrella that partnership umbrella in 1985.
I'm.
Then, I'm trying to, I had a cheat sheet over here in 88.
You know, I did this orientation. So there was a I guess around the summer. In 1988 there was a West African study abroad.
And so do I remember doing this. No, but I you know I kind of remember I did the pre and post pre tour and post tour evaluation.
But there was this whole orientation that included Dr. Alan Roberts, surely Clarkson me.
Dr. Joanne Hall.
Dr. Nisha Hanif you know the number of people for this up, and the students went to a number of countries do you guys have information on that.
That's part of what we're trying to track down, I think some of those might be in the archive.
But part of what we're trying to do is reconstruct the history of study abroad. Yeah, So, I believe, because I put in this.
So I could send. I have two copies of this orientation packet. Oh, that would be great.
but they had the Nene gamma Gambia, Ghana Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Senegal, that was a crazy and Togo, so I'm assuming they get all of those countries, because otherwise why would we put this in here, but I don't have the itinerary of, you know, when they
did what but I, I believe it was in 88.
So I was.
And then, 89 was the. I had already left. Ann Arbor but since dr Nisha Hannah was doing the study abroad and it seemed great and and a lot of folks I knew was going.
I did this study abroad in Barbados. And actually, my father was excited about it so he joined also in Barbados. Uh huh.
That's a lovely picture.
Yes, I saw those pictures that you sent of you and your father, standing together in Barbados. Yeah. And what again crazy in those, some of the pictures I said, I am speaking.
During that study abroad. I'm on a panel. Yes, I saw that I cannot tell you what I was talking about.
And I don't have the agenda.
So, you know, I would love to really see what you guys have to because it will help me create.
Sure, sure. And so just to. Sorry, go ahead.
This article, so the Bunnymen project that we could talk about more in detail but it ended up being. We were doing a survey of students at the National University.
Walter Allen did a survey of students in Zimbabwe, and we did a survey of students, African American students at Michigan. So we did this whole study and I have this huge final report.
But, in 92.
I couldn't find it but in a cast
publication.
Walter and I wrote this thing, ethnicity, the problem of the 21st century, a preliminary examination of the significance of race national identity and ethnicity in a global African diaspora, and it's in the voices of the African diaspora, and it's that's
a publication of cast, and this was in 92.
so interesting. I know it's interesting thanks for sharing those I think you probably might have alleviated some of this before I hand it over to my colleague, I just wanted you to share some of the most interest What did you like about this study about
what you like about your experiences in class generally Is there any unforgettable and memorable experience to private like to share with us.
You know what I that's the hard way you're talking.
40 years ago so just because there is one that I will share, but it's not like the, the most Earth shaking, but I guess it did have a major impact on me so I can, I can still remember it, but I will say that clearly I just did have a good feeling.
being in cast and like a welcoming feeling.
Even we said we'll talk about it at another time but the the campaign that I did during the anti apartheid movement on political prisoners serving a life sentence.
CASS even wrote about that you know in some of the publications so that was really about part of cast as well, in a sense because I was doing it and they move.
So the experience that I remember, really need to write about this.
Oh gosh, Stephen Nandan is his name. He was a speaker from
London.
The director of this institute embrace relations may be in London.
And he's from Sri Lanka.
A very
brown darker skin.
And so during the presentation you know he said well, but, you know, clean up like the kind of black person. I'm used to.
Oh, I'm during the presentation, you know he was saying well being, being black and other than being black and you know, so I'm looking at some of the other people.
And so we, you know, asked about that, because this was just not something we understood.
And he said well know being black in the, in a political sense of being definitely in London.
He was oppressed as a as a as a darker skinned person as a black person. And so we had a whole discussion about that.
Well, I was fascinated. Like, you know this black person want to go.
Go see that, you know, experience that.
And, and I, so I went, I did it as a part of.
After the experience in the Nene and the study that we did it was clear to get funding to really do what we had planned as a part of the Michigan Dineen collaboration, we really needed to focus on development issues, and I had no background in development.
So,
I decided to.
I need to attend the Society for International Development, and it was that year, I think it was 88 was held in India.
Let me just hop over to Sri Lanka from there and so anyway so Stephen now let's talk. Also I was very impressed because he was showing. They create these great publications, about how racism came to Britain.
As I think I even got involved with selling those for him in the US.
But yeah, so his talk was very enlightening and very, you know, expanded my consciousness of okay what is what is black, what has been
handed over to David.
Thank you.
Thanks. that's so interesting. Thank you.
I'm from South Africa and I'm also working on a history of land struggles in South Africa and South Africa's land restitution program.
So actually going off the lap I'm going to vary up our question outline a bit because I want to go off something that Deborah was just talking about now.
Um, so one of the things that we're interested in, in finding out is if you could speak a bit more broadly about going off for instance, what you mentioned of the Sri Lankan man's talk and kind of consciousness around, around as you put it to what it
is to be back and so on.
So, I'm interested in what were the sort of intellectual political interests that propelled you towards these connections between Africa and African diaspora.
I know that's a big question.
I think I always had an international interest. I remember was in high school or during college, maybe during college one summer.
We had an international student, you know, stay with our family.
It was just a short, short time it wasn't a semester.
When I was an undergrad, I was
disturbed, I guess.
By the problems in the relationships between African Americans and African students. And I was like, what, why can't we have a better communication here, there was just so much misunderstanding.
And, you know, during that time also the whole anti party thing was happening.
And we can talk about that, feel free to to get that in as well.
The whole thing.
But I'm so sorry. So the question was, how did I get into bees yeah into how did you get interested in these connections and what drew you to this work that you've been doing both like during your time and cats and death but it seems like it's been an
Yeah.
And I think there were different periods of international interest.
So, with the whole relationship of African as an African Americans.
I was just really interested in Africa and learning more about Africa, and I must
thank my father, who had longtime interest in Africa. So, when I was going to bed mean, I also then tagged on, it was 85, a trip to Kenya for the NGO, the women's conference in Kenya.
So I went from the name to Kenya and then I went to Ivory Coast.
And my father said, Oh, I think what come join you.
This was 85 before the 89 joining to come to me. But, you know, it was a whole other show I said, Daddy, I'm going to need to do this work, you know, let me do some of it, you know, so he came a little, a little later.
So, the interest in Africa and then became the interest in the African diaspora. You know where people went and.
For instance, in 1990.
I left for a six week trip to South West Pacific, that ended up being six months, but just really interested in.
In Melanie Asia know black people and then Melanie Asian.
There's a whole story I was on the beach and I was looking at a book and a friend had about the South Pacific and looking at the melon Nisha versus the Polynesian apart and Indian War Two, they had picture.
Father Walter Lindy was the first president.
And those back black people look like the black people. You know, so I'm from Los Angeles Central Avenue is a fake famous place I don't know in Detroit, what street is like the street for black people.
But the folks in vinyl want to look like me and you know different from the Highland Papa New Guinea Highlanders and so I gotta go to Ottawa too so you know so I had this interest I have done many self directed study abroad programs.
And so, you know, then it was like the African diaspora and now it's the African American diaspora.
Where did.
and and i would say at Michigan State, Dr. Ruth Sims Hamilton, who directed the African diaspora research project and it was just a fabulous initiatives, actually spoke there about identity in.
In Melanie's Asia, you know, after I did that trip. So,
I, I don't know because sometimes I wonder how is it. I got this bug, but maybe some of the friends I grew up with, you know, because I've traveled to like 75 countries, and I still have a lot more to go.
So, yeah, what, what, and and sometimes it's a personal relationships.
I don't know if I'm a tell the whole story on the tape, but it was a party in Detroit, the first in 82. It was the first time I met anyone from South Africa, these, these two brothers from South Africa and this whole, whole thing but
a crush was involved in this story.
But anyway, as I drove back, they had made such an impression on me, as I drove from Detroit back to Ann Arbor and in like June 1982.
I started thinking what had I done in terms of Nanterre party movement and so I was involved with the divestment and one more money on.
And in the when I was in junior high, I wore a bracelet brass bracelet of a POWMI person from Vietnam War, and reward until the person was found or whatever.
So, it was that drive back it was after that party after the crush that influenced me or.
Yeah, to create the South African prisoner brace program perfect make sense. And I think the personal, the personal is political and vice versa. That way, so yeah that makes sense.
Um, so I'm interested sort of linked to that and to the, you know, thinking about the connections between Africans and African Americans as well.
What was it like working with narrows to the customer because I know sort of her approach, she was interested as well in bringing African Studies, together with African American Studies, what was it like working with it.
You know, I enjoyed working with her. I learned a lot.
You know I can't give any specifics.
We work closely together for that to get that done.
But I'm sorry I can't, you know, it was a really continued after you know after that program after she went to Lincoln.
So it was something and I got to know her son Michael, you know who's in South Africa now.
And maybe you could tell us a little bit developer, you can also jump in here a bit more about that been in collaboration the University have been in collaboration, and what that involves both sort of in terms of activities but also in terms of the relationships
that developed between, between students and faculty on both of um and they need.
Again, I can't tell you the comprehensive i've you know I could send you the objectives of that partnership of, you know, the goals.
So, goals of what we were proposing. So I don't know should I read that or.
Doesn't have to be, you know, specific or a specific. Well, just in, in general, the collaboration between the two universities, you know to do faculty exchanges and development on our side and do interdisciplinary research.
So when the three faculty came to Michigan.
I kind of hung out and work with all of them but Professor gay was the in psychology. So it was talking with him that we developed this idea of to do a preliminary study and get the students involved and get the faculty involved so you know I had been
trained, really, at that point quite extensively in survey research methodology at the Institute for Social Research, so I had, I had that background.
And it was, I work with Professor EA and a graduate student can't remember his name at this point. But.
The team also included.
Because we were also doing Zimbabwe, you know, kind of a part of it. And so, Dr. Walter Allen was leading that up and then the professor there, because I think cats already had a relationship with the University of Zimbabwe and kind of combining those
two. But Dr. Santoli.
He was a professor in the Department of Political Science political administrative Studies at the University of Zimbabwe. And Dr Gemma dari Kamara, who I knew very well and know his wife very well we danced in but you to be a Congo together.
Hello. So, Jerry was involved and Dr. Phil Bowman was involved as well. So, part of it was, you know, just seeing what's the capacity and trying to do something that we could do.
So it was with the students. but I remember I went to the
insane.
Whatever the National Institute.
I mean, that's kind of their statistical Institute just see what kind of maps and you know I was used to drawing a sample probability sample but you know we have to have census tracts we have to have, you know, maps and to what extent they have that and
it was very, very basic at that time.
So it was an incredible experience for me.
I write something that.
At that time I was a strict vegetarian.
I was the woman.
I did not have my PhD at that time.
But I was working with a male, man.
professor.
Okay, but I knew the survey research, and this was new to him.
And I had gotten funding from the Vice President of Research and Michigan and I think aspects and I even got from like this society for social issues, some professional side that I don't even remember at this point.
So I've gotten about $6,000 to do this project. So, I mean I had some grant money, but we didn't have money to pay. We should have maybe.
Professor yeah yeah in the student but then I have to pay so it was, it was a very interesting.
I was young, you know, position to be in.
And I should also say this was my first trip to Africa, so I ki all these expectations and basically early on I was told, well, you're an American.
No,
said no. And so we had these debates, really.
And it was very surprising, but that look, you have benefited from the American system and
not only that you you walk like an American you talk like America everybody could see me coming. This is an American.
So, it was just very very challenging, very rewarding, very,
You know a lot of learning and I think you you really learn the most when you're challenged in that way. I mean, as another quick story as a part of this time I was there.
Professor yeah it took, it was a small group of us that went to this fishing village.
Great.
Learning seeing something new Baba, and from this village they were going to go to another village, to get fish, they need, you know to for food and.
And there was this French guy.
Also with this group of white guy.
And I was told, well the two, the two yo Vols to to white people.
The French guy and me needed to stay, not go with them because it would increase the price of the fish.
And it's like,
I'm with the way
were just very interested to know better Welcome to contention. I mean some of the issues around Africanist and African American. I think I just wanted to ask, by we'll just follow up to that question, do you think at the end of me if you look back now.
back now. Over time, we do not finally accepted in those cultures.
I you know, I felt I felt accepted. Okay, but not as,
you know, a lot of African Americans go to Africa. I'm going home I'm going you know my brothers and sisters, so yes brothers and sisters, but I'm not in their ethnic group, and I could see, yeah I'm an American right and so I could see that, so I had.
I've always had fabulous experiences, wherever I've got, you know with the relationships of folks, and I think it's the attitude you go with. That's true.
Yeah. In fact, in that orientation.
I don't know what I was what I said and what I was supposed to be talking about. But, um, the last part of the orientation. I was speaking on creating positive energy for a positive experience.
You know, so I really think it's.
I remember when I was at the women's conference in Kenya.
Oh God, there was some African American women who were just complaining complaining and complaining, you know, and it's like, because things weren't what they were used to what they're expecting, or what they're used to.
And it's like, okay, hold up. You didn't come here to have the exact same experience.
You know one story about South Africa. So, I
had the part of the party was in 82.
But I started researching, that this other the POW program, and there was just a real heavy antiwar sentiment at the time when I was part of that breaks the program.
So, in 82, there were things at some campuses but there wasn't a huge
feeling nationally, you know about the anti apartheid movement. So, but at in Thanksgiving in 1984. When Randall Robinson Mary Frances Barry, Walter Fontan Roy and Eleanor Holmes Norton sat in at the South African embassy Thanksgiving night that hit every
newspaper, you know that these Congress people and these high level officials sat in at the South African embassy so I said oh my gosh, this is it this is the moment for the bracelet program you knows I have to find out.
Well, anyway, I'm digressing. The point I wanted to make is finally in 89, I'm Reverend and good when Nat D from Hartford Memorial Baptist Church invited me to take from the church who saw that Africa for the unveiling of his mother's tombstone.
And 89, I had been so many, so many places, it's like I there's no way I could afford to go to South Africa.
After I had been in Geneva, Kenya to the Barbados Trinidad, you know.
So actually I got, I was able to get funding, really quickly from the World Council of Churches in the National Council of Churches to interview the families of the life prisoners in South Africa, so I went in at nine.
But I was telling someone something that okay this is partied, you know, this is 89. Right. Yeah.
And, um, I was living with a family in Pikeville in Soweto.
And, you know, within the first week.
I went to a wedding.
You know and like a celebration.
And it was so it was like, you know,
manatee and you know people's life went on, even under this oppressive
regime and situation and under apartheid, and and it's sometimes you don't hear about that that yeah people still got married people still fell in love people still while they're getting shot, they're doing this you know the camp phone these other things.
Oh, you know just sometimes it's the experience of going that you could read I mean I've read so much you know about, you know, I've gone to all the conferences.
But when you go.
In fact, to love life example for you.
While it is that the World Council of Churches, so I finally worked at the World Council of Churches program to combat racism for four years.
And we were asked.
Gosh, I forget his name.
Cancer we were cancer we were was a leader in, in most up in Ogoni land near Port Harcourt.
And in the oil producing area, you know, that evolved and so he had requested that the
gonna
be here requested the World Council of Churches to come and look at the situation. I'm just trying to think what the point I was.
So I went, Nigeria.
Oh, there are a lot of stories of, you know, guns drawn going under a botches regime,
or listen to a young man.
I'm sure you were you were even born when he died or something.
Um, so that was you're talking about like so that the experience of the reality being that people's lives. Go on. Yeah.
Well lives Go on, but just the whole issue of being on the ground and seen being on the ground. So, so there's a whole stories, how we smuggled and got into undercover into the land, but I'm seeing from some environmental devastation from 1970 and seeing
it in 97 1997,
it, it was a whole different thing and then also understanding how the pipeline's
functioned in in Nigeria, how they would have to go through a booming land so even though they had stopped, allegedly stopped pumping oil from Ogoni land.
They were bringing oil from other places, still going through a good 11. So, there was definitely still opportunity for
oil spills, and other things and you couldn't really see it you couldn't
comprehend fully without being there, you know the other thing, all these billions of dollars of oil pumped out of a loony land, and the gas stations.
They didn't have electricity.
So you are your hand pumping gas to put in a big container to put in a smaller container to put in your car.
After billions of dollars have been taken out of, out of the out of that region, and the shell complex so the this community didn't have electricity. The shell complex, you know, we were driving at night.
All these lights.
Across the street, dark, you know, and so sometimes I'm like I want to get on a plane and go somewhere right now. You know unless you're there to really talk and experience you miss you, miss certain things.
Yeah, thank you so much. I really relate to some of those things. Before I asked the next what's your W again.
Oh prisoners of war and missing in action. Oh, yeah.
We're prisoners of war or missing in action, for the Vietnam War.
Right. So in the context of the South Africa bracelet program that you were that you were running was that political prisoners omk people missing or.
I had to think how am I going to do this, and I couldn't do. Like everybody in prison, or everybody, I'm missing.
And so it's really talking with AMC and SWAPO that
we came up with, you know, we couldn't even do all prisoners because people were being arrested and released all the time, you know, yeah.
In a national defense in a fun and fabulous newsletter. And so it was going to be easier to follow what's happening with the light, the prisoners sentenced to life.
At five, they were like, 44, send his life on Robben Island, and eight.
About 18 of those were Namibian prisoners who had been loan and put on trial in South Africa and imprisoned on Robben Island, right, because the party government occupied Namibia as well.
Southwest Africa. Right, right. Makes sense. And I don't know if I told you here or I was talking with a colleague earlier.
And 2015 was the 30th anniversary of the release of those Namibian prisoners so we started this bracelet program, March, 1985, but by November, those 18, who had been in prison for quite a while we're releasing though in 2015.
I contacted my friends and in Namibia saying hey oh what are you going to do for the 30th anniversary of the release of the Namibian prisoners.
I don't know if anything I don't know I don't know. So I said, Oh no, We have to do something so within a month.
We got this program together that really turned out to be fabulous I forgot the name it's the national independence. museum I think in vindaloo.
We had 200 people there, or this program commemoration, and I had put in a nice frame something.
The actual bracelets of the 18. And, you know, because we had a information booklet also about political prisoners the main, the purity laws they were tried under blah blah blah.
So I presented that to the director of the museum and then that's a part of the
museum. At this point you know hey there was this bracelet program. Hey all these Americans and other folks were aware you know war bracelets and wrote, you know, two people.
There's a whole story about toys oh yeah toy Oh, we have time we'll get to it.
Yeah.
I think we want to really hear a little bit more about the study abroad and I think when you're talking about you taking some students have some access to the study abroad programs, did you have a take your students to study abroad to study abroad program
while you actually over.
Okay, I won't say, I took them because I wasn't in charge for Dr Hanif Nisha Hannah's her program included a huge.
Maybe 20 students, so students went, I mean that was the main purpose, there were some faculty who went, but it was mainly, it was a student abroad. And then for the, what was it the 88 West African study abroad that was, that was for students.
Yeah. Okay, so just a follow up to that, um, I think what would you think impact was for students going over Africa, how did that impact your learning experience.
Overall, or the educational and you know karaoke pursuits and like, okay, I can't speak to really can't speak to anyone because either place. I really wasn't there for the West African study abroad and hey, if somewhere in your archives or files.
There was a pre I created this pre tour evaluation and post tour.
Oh yeah, I think it would be great because it would get at some of those things in terms of their experiences, and
so much about Counsel of church members to them and you got funding you got about taking some students from the Baptist Church to some pattern Africa, did you go with the students as well you did not.
Okay, okay. So, for the funding I got from the.
Okay, so we're fighting two different things.
Robin Yahtzee. Yeah, trying to take some people from his church to go to South Africa have really happened when he invited me to go and have any money.
Oh, try to get some money from World Council of Churches and national conferences, so I was able to get funding to go, but I could. And that's how I went to South Africa.
I mean, I didn't know about failing and I in pivotal I was staying with Reverend the relatives.
There, but I'm thinking, many delegations because I was very involved in the United Nations, the World Summit on sustainable development in the World Conference, against racism.
Hmm. So, we did preparatory meetings in various countries, and took delegations to the World Conference.
I was around the students who went to the study abroad in Barbados, and I could just say I'm a firm believer in international experience. I think it is.
I think it's like should be a requirement for all undergrad and graduate students if they haven't gone before.
I think, but just FYI.
I definitely want to do a creative study abroad, looking at African Americans and living abroad so go to countries to meet with African Americans there and look at the contributions African Americans have made.
So yeah, I think.
I think it's essential. I think it's essential and so I hope. Das is doing some.
Are you guys still doing study abroad programs.
Yes I believed, not not at the moment because of the pandemic. It's been.
From what I understand, death is having to do some restructuring around study abroad because, given the pandemic. The, the regulations are so much more rigid than they were previously so.
So part of actually yeah part of what I it's great to hear this from you because part of what what I want to do with this project is also help Matthew countryman to make a case for why study abroad is so important.
And, and, and doing it in the way that you described in this way that that is sensitive and and help students navigate, both commonalities and differences that they might encounter with people in on the ground in different countries so yeah so I think
that your experiences are so, so vital and so interesting, natural God too.
But yeah i mean i think they were even then, there's been research and literature on
role of international experience on the development of leaders.
So, Yeah, in this in a 21st century.
It's not do one you need to do to study abroad.
Yeah. And it would be great if, for i don't i don't know if
i don't know if undergrad students would have this maybe graduate students but you know even funds for students. Hey, I have an idea. I want to do this, you know, funds available so they could do their own.
I've done 50 million of those just Hey, I gotta go check this out, you know, actually brings me to my next question I was going to ask you like how that this international experience how do they impact your own career pursuits I mean I've heard a lot
of that and you know perhaps you've been speaking, you know, over the course of the interview but, you know, in concise and precise words, how has that shaped your procedure carrier or particularly where you at right now.
Do you think it has impacted us in some way that's of course part of the question. The second part is, if you had to look back now. I mean, what would you do differently in some of the study abroad programs.
Well, what would you. Did you think you checked all the boxes on if not how would you approach it better in, you know, coming Yes, or tell younger ones like we proposing study abroad programs for, you know, scholars and students.
What advice would you tell them like this is the way you should do it and do it this way.
Okay, I think requested. So you have to remind me. Okay, so the first one.
It has impacted every, every part of my life, you know, international experience the even how people view me today you know it's like, oh, she's, she's the global person, you know, she's the international person.
I created for the bracelet program and then again, like for real organization, International possibilities of limited.
One it embodies who I am.
It's my spirit, but then also I firmly believe social justice issues can be solved but it needs an international perspective, get influenced you know I got it, I was never interested in an MBA.
So I ran Ipu international possibilities and unlimited and that's when we did a lot of work with the, with the UN and the World Conference racism and these.
But I was pretty successful raising money.
But I was pretty successful raising money. Um, but I felt I needed more management skills to really run this organization or, and that a lot of nonprofits, really need that I could benefit from using some business type approaches to run.
So I, I saw various people wanted to set I should get an MBA get.
I'm not interested in regular business stuff, but there was this MBA program at the University of Geneva.
And it was specializing in international organizations.
That's it.
So I love Geneva I loved working at the World Council of Churches in Geneva I loved.
You know, working with all those international organization so I did the MBA and I really thought I would get a job, I mean that was my goal to get a job in Geneva that one of these international organizations.
But my father
had Alzheimer's, and I had to decide before Hey, should I do this now What should I do, and, you know, go ahead and do the MBA. But when I finished. And I was just going to go home put a few things in place but within a week, I knew I would have to move
back to Los Angeles to assist my parents. So, got the MBA to move back. And so being this very international. I got very local with my family and some work I was doing alright so what was your second question.
Remember, the second question is over time like what would you change.
Like, what do you think would change with the abroad programs.
Well, I'll answer what would I do differently. Yeah. Study Abroad study abroad programs. Yeah, it's just pitiful that I never learned the language I speak a little French, a little Spanish, but I'm not fluent and to be so International, and not be fluid
another language. That's pathetic.
I'm thinking about the study abroad.
Oh and I should say, I never did study abroad, when I was an undergrad.
And so,
I had this kind of internet thing but but you know why I think one, not my friends were doing it, I didn't know anybody who was doing it.
And there was no outreach, nobody Williams, really said Hey, what about study abroad.
So I think it's very important I don't I don't know how it's done. Now at Michigan, but I think it's really important to just encourage and show the students, especially, you know, especially if they're on scholarship, well that scholarship could go towards
the study abroad so this will be the cheapest time to have this experience.
So I think you need that kind of outreach and encouragement that, hey, you know this, this will be good.
Maybe you guys should do a publication with students who have done study abroad and just highlighting their experiences.
We are going to be talking to some more more recent um grads who who did study abroad during their undergrad, right. We were also part of the desk community.
At the same time, so that'll be really interesting to write.
And I don't know the third one was what was, can I just just two basic questions. Yeah, I guess. Sorry.
No, go ahead. Go ahead. Okay I had another follow up on that when you, when you finish.
I think it was like how would you have actually talked about, about what that was more understood and pass but on top of the study abroad program itself like, How can that be improved.
Is there any room for improvement. With you know I really wasn't because I just participated with the program. I mean, I guess I spoke, but I don't know why, you know, so I wasn't organizing it.
I think she would know better what what worked, what didn't work. I had a great time. I thought the whole thing I liked. We went to the Caribbean Studies Association Conference, as well as the program she put together.
Yeah, and then the, the one that I hardly remember West Africa that. Yeah.
Clearly I was involved but since I didn't go with the students. I don't know what you know because I'm impressed. What it's like five countries, know, and I don't know how long they were gone where they gone, the whole or months or so or three months.
So, because I think they're two models of study abroad at least the traditional model is you go for semester or summer, like a month, whatever, go to one place, study that way.
International honors program that was out of Boston but then school for international training now runs that program and I used to work for school for international training has a model they study a, an issue like climate change, and they go to four countries,
looking comparatively at that one issue. I love that. So that's the kind of model.
I would use.
When I organize a study abroad, you know it's it's more expensive so I you know would have to be priced out.
And so, and then, then maybe you could have different experiences.
Like, get your toe wet kind of experience, you know, for people really hesitant, maybe somewhere in the Caribbean. Right.
That's a safe experience.
And then another level.
And then maybe this competitive, you know, going all over for people who really feel comfortable. you know, you may also.
One thing that I had suggested to si t, or let's say African American students but it may be other students as well. I'm first generation students,
depending if no one in their family has left the country.
You probably need an orientation that includes the parents or the sisters or other family members, is a great idea.
Blaine.
You know what they gonna do with their baby, you know, what happened just really just have a better sense so there's a level of comfort parents that. Okay, now I now I know what are they going to do and by the way, where is where is fun to watch.
I'd remember the shot actually get to this to do an interview that a lot of parents were concerned. you're like, would they even have a place to sleep.
Sleep and trees over there so it would make sense to arrange family members as well. You know, and whether it's I mean cookie in person now everything is zoom and continue.
I mean I think sometimes when you're talking about going abroad leaving the country, I think sometimes it needs a little bit more closer relationship and a face to face if possible, would be would be important.
Yeah.
I'm aware that we're, we're at 170 So, so it's been so fun talking to. We can stick around if you have a bit more time but it will start understand if you, if you have other other things you need to get onto.
Well, I'm, I'm on a roll now so you don't make 45 is fine. Okay, okay. So another 15 minutes or so.
So, kind of following up on de la pose questions. One of the things I was thinking about is, as you were describing your experiences in between.
and the kind of having to negotiate, how people perceive you differently from what you, you may have expected.
So, on the other side of that coin, what were, what would the experiences you found where it okay here's, here's common ground. He has a way in which we identify with each other.
Um, you know, I think, even though we weren't
like family, family, we were kind of family, so I was very.
I was very warmly welcomed. You know, so, and I think they were very interested in doing the project. So having that common task.
I think helped, because then what can we do something.
Yeah, I'm building a project together. Yeah, building the project together. I think it definitely helps.
Because, Professor EA was here first so we got to you know there so there were dinners I had, I had them over my house, you know, we got to know each other here.
We continue the relationship and then, you know, I was, Yeah, I think it would have helped.
If somebody told me, You know what, to have talked to me about some of my expectations.
So it would have to have been listening African American, talking to me about, you know what, so the whole thing. I had, you know, I was strict vegetarian, I wasn't eating fish.
Any stuff. So I stayed at this house for visiting scholars, and they could not believe or understand why.
I'm not eating meat and not eating even fish, and it was it was it was such a well one I would have starved, I would have starved, you know, because they didn't have what I was, I was, I was the king of tofu and so, you know, I could do all this stuff,
so I had to say okay I'll eat fish because, you know, I had to. So I think I'm really talking with students or people who are going on that he brought in.
Let's see. Okay that was 85. You know I had been from high school, I did go on a 10 week 10 Day two week trip to Greece.
With my school and it was classical alliance of western states so I was with some friends. But I think for.
So it wasn't my first time out of the country, but I had all these first time to Africa and going to Africa, you know I just all those.
Having because sometimes you have expectations that you don't even know about till till your challenge till your shoe, you know. Yeah. And what about in terms of the anti apartheid struggle, I know that, like, South Africans who are involved in political
movements and Americans are involved in political movements talk about. There's a sense of kind of shared dealing with a white racist society and the struggle against that.
So, so I'm wondering, sort of, what was that like in terms of building solidarity.
Um, Yeah, well I mean, all of a saw those similarities. So I think that's why even Americans and African Americans.
Finally got on it, and understood it even though they weren't weren't really understanding it and maybe didn't know all of the issues that they do enough because it looks so similar than they could relate to it.
But I must say. Some of the relationships and
working the folks I've worked with both here and in South Africa, still friends. After all these years.
There was this bonding.
That's really incredible that when I think about some of the people oh yeah that's way back then, you know today and then parties must say when I went for the first time to Namibia to do that.
I must say when I went for the first time to Namibia to do that. That thing and toy evil was the secretary general of SWAPO.
We have people right to the families of the political prisoners for South Africa was through the South African Council of Churches the dependence conference, or the Namibian prison prisoners, it was through SWAPO, and we had gotten so someone had written
the letter got to Teufel you have to swap. He wrote back to this person from Ann Arbor, and she shared me, share the letter with me. And it was just amazing that the Secretary General, because he was saying, Oh, please get this letter to this person's
family in the north in Namibia and, you know, you should keep records track a file of these kinds of letters because they're so important there, you know, very important.
And so, first time I went to the movie I was, I was looking. Did they have a file in the north of, I couldn't find the file.
I mean I couldn't find anyone who knew about the file but it's amazing.
As you see from this interview, I'm not shy, right. I'm kind of talkative.
When I met a toilet toilet for the first time.
And I knew I was going to meet him, you know, so it comes around the corner.
And I was so taken aback.
I shake hands and he says I you know he introduced I said.
And he said, add your family.
I couldn't speak, I was just so overwhelmed. So finally, you know, after a few minutes, I got it together and I was a.
We had a great job but they, my friends say what you were, you know, but yeah, it was stuck. Yeah.
Yeah.
Just a quick question about some of the scholars who you said, came to Ann Arbor for a while as well. Do you by chance, have contact details for them still would be interesting to find out what they thought what the experience of study abroad for them
was like to see if they're still alive.
I think the most I could do is try to find the names, I have got them, you know.
Yeah, and then we could try track them down.
Yeah, that I could. Because also I have a letter from the rector of, you know, saying I'm coming to study and this this this and.
Yeah. So, if you remind me I'll try to find that and then you could be if they're still at the university or if they still have contact you know. Okay, but happy to talk with Gemma dari Kamara know.
You definitely need to talk with him because he then did a Fulbright for like two years.
In, at the National University.
Okay.
Yeah.
And I mean you finished at Michigan, and he was over I mean, an arbor, but I think he was the director of CAS at another university of michigan Campbell.
Oh, very interesting. Oh yeah but here we must definitely get in touch with him. Yeah.
Cuz I was. Yeah, I was finding all kinds of things.
I don't even know if that's Michigan or
someplace else.
Oh no it's Jim. Jim Adare was a part of this. So, I don't even see a year here.
Oh, sorry, December 1983 issue.
Yeah, so I think
Gemini may have files.
Hey scraped.
And then, lastly we're interested to hear a bit more about we global I know you mentioned it.
Okay, so, um, there really has been an explosion of African Americans, moving abroad.
So, while people know about Josephine Baker, Richard Wright, you know, lengthen. These in Paris in the 40s 50s 60s people really don't know what African Americans are doing, literally all over the world at this time so whereas previously, there may have
been certain countries, obviously. So, Dr. Gaines wrote a book on African Americans in Ghana.
But in this era. Yeah, great book little bit about. Currently, I'm Dr Stovall wrote a party in the war, looking at, African Americans, Paris, it was historically, but you know a little bit about, well, he wrote that in 1996 so it was, African Americans
in Paris in 1996.
So I said,
Well, I said, We need a study looking globally of African Americans currently living abroad. And initially I said, I don't need a research team. I just need context because there are a lot of Facebook groups, brothers and sisters of Kuwait brothers and
sisters of South Korea brothers and sisters XYZ in Ghana.
And so they're very different also types of organizations of African Americans in various places in Ghana there's a very well established traditional organization with dues elected members, they meet every third Sunday in their own building in Kenya,
there's this huge group. It's a whatsapp group, but hundreds of messages fly every day. This whatsapp group in in Kenya, so I said let me identify like the moderators and those key people in various countries, because they would know Tori Rogers in Bangkok,
but they will know different Robins. So I identified these people and they said yes we'll get them to the online survey.
Um, it just didn't work out as it's just hard to get people to answer an online survey.
But I think is really important because people need, I think, African American young African Americans need to know hey, not only can I study abroad in Thailand.
I could move to Thailand, I could live in Thailand, I could live in Nigeria, we won't go there. I could, I could live in got it. You know, so, giving.
I think it's important to give examples. I want to tell the stories of African Americans living abroad. I want to let people know that it wasn't just in the 40s 50s 60s but when I give talks on this, I go back to the 1800s of African Americans who went
abroad for different reasons and what they did and and the contributions they're making so people, maybe don't know that. Jackie Robinson, the famous baseball player.
His son has been in Tanzania for 30 or 40 years, huge amount of time. He's a coffee farmer in Tanzania, but he created a collective of it in a rural coffee growing area.
He created this collective of coffee growers, so that they could bring their product to market at a better price. That's incredible. You know, what are, there's a guy in Thailand who's doing a has a theater company.
There is a guy in.
Wait, they're these stories so it's that I want to get people to do the online survey, but I think I do need a research team I need funding.
I want to do oral histories, with with people to really tell those stories, but I've been working with libraries and museums also. So I want to particularly with museums have an exhibit have some kind of way of huge map of the world, and you touch, Thailand,
and stories and information comes up you touch France you touch Nigeria you touch wherever, but the whole idea is we global cuz we are.
And right now the 93 people only who did the survey. It's from 31 countries.
So that's really pretty amazing so the reason why people have done research in Denmark or research in France and research in Ghana is because it is very hard to do a global study, but I really think that's what's needed to capture the experiences, the
diverse experience, what what what's curious.
sounds fascinating, fascinating such a great project.
So hey if das has the money and resources to have me be something then to help you with something. I'm Oh, yeah.
We will definitely pass on. Yes, pass it and yeah, you know, even to write up all this stuff from all these different experiences and the International
sounds fantastic.
Thank you for sharing thank you thank you so much. I guess we are wrapping up right now. Yeah. Yeah, but do you have any final words. Any last words of thoughts that's probably the active question but you really wanted us to hear about because
I covered so much I could talk forever. I just really appreciate the opportunity to share. I thought the das 50 program was fabulous. And it really it inspired me and and and it just made me start thinking, you know, what were the things that I've done
with cast that's now, and and really just wanted to be a part again, like you said of the of the family.
So, yeah, I just wish you the best and we could keep in touch. And I could figure out a way, some things I definitely have copies of and I could just say, you guys.
But it's been it's been very helpful to me prepare for this, but just even remember.
You know what I did, you know, to kind of reconstruct that again so that was very helpful. I just speaking with Dr well to Alan.
No, no, I don't think so. I don't think so I wish we should right definitely should, because he was involved in so many, he was involved with the money in Zimbabwe projects and Bob were projects Rice was involved with Cass and Tom holds and, because I
know Walter and Tom. Did you by chance want to contact the two.
I can, I can find their contact, they both went to the Barbados.
study abroad.
and
Robert Allen, I don't but have you heard that name.
Think sir. Oh boy. First, all this was happening, you guys like five.
But he would be really important, because I think he went over as a part of this Guinean
connection.
So,