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Okay.

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All right.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: All right, thank you so much Deborah we really, really, really, really, really, really appreciate you spending the time with us this afternoon.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Words wouldn't be enough to express our gratitude, you know, out of your busy schedule you've taken out this time.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: So just by way of introduction, my name is de la for offer it i'm a second game masters of health informatics students.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: But I worked as a research assistant at that so that's my own sort of collaboration with us i'm from Nigeria just us, by the way, I mean love Africa.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: And I love my experience so far to him and we yet so also you know sharing some of your experiences and then you know we're in the middle of telling the story of that over 50 years i'm wanting to keep.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: That is something that is central to that community as a whole and then why we are you doing this projects in a very fast with.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: So just by way of baton this interview this have to learn, we just want to know a little bit about you some background information.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Just how it started and where it all started from so um Where are you from initially and then what and when you wanted to study at U of M and when did you come to them to study that's.

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Deborah Robinson: Great I was, I was actually born in New York, but left you know, two or three and I grew up in Los Angeles, so I went from Los Angeles to Massachusetts to Williams college for undergrad and then straight after directly, I came to Michigan for graduate school.

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Deborah Robinson: So i'm supposed to tell what year I came I came there.

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Is.

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Deborah Robinson: No problem.

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Deborah Robinson: It was 1978.

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Deborah Robinson: studied social social psychology the psychology program I think still is the department is huge and even social was a huge sub area.

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Deborah Robinson: So, while I was here, I took the extended approach, because I worked at the at the Institute for social research program for research on Black Americans.

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Deborah Robinson: and worked on the national survey of black Americans national black election study and that whole process under leadership of James Jackson and others became the program for research on Black Americans.

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Deborah Robinson: And I guess I don't know how I first kind of got into it was cast you know when I was there.

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Deborah Robinson: But knew a lot of the Faculty.

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Deborah Robinson: At cast and so started in 83 against working with new era, as a research assistant.

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Deborah Robinson: On the.

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Deborah Robinson: conference, the immigration conference.

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Deborah Robinson: And so what's interesting kind of full circle i'm back at Michigan back at program for research of black Americans with the project.

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Deborah Robinson: hashtag week global African Americans living abroad so really interested in African Americans who are currently living abroad so i'm doing that.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: That sounds interesting and you know that's some good well so just to clarify anything we've done for them, when you define the PhD program there.

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Deborah Robinson: Yes, I started actually Program.

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Deborah Robinson: Along the way I got the Masters just because you.

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know.

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Deborah Robinson: But it was the I was accepted into the PhD.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Oh OK OK.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: yeah actually touch base on this little bit, but before I just probably asked for the clarification, so I remember, I think, has passed in 1979 58 yeah.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: yeah.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: yeah no overheads low, excuse me, I think my question would be What was your experience like doing this for me to have you know, a black program or how you know we begin to define identity What was it like a black student at your vm when you came on your own personal experience.

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Deborah Robinson: I think.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know if my experience was.

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Deborah Robinson: unique or different I think coming into the social psychology program and I think there's some statistic that the Michigan program produced the most social psychologists.

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Deborah Robinson: any place in the country.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Oh, you.

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Deborah Robinson: know, there was there was a definitely a critical mass of African American students in the social psychology program being hooked very quickly into the national survey of black Americans with James Jackson Belinda Tucker Philip Bowman Jerry girl and.

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Deborah Robinson: There was a this interdisciplinary.

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Deborah Robinson: team, and so it definitely became a family, I mean we work together we party together we study together and It reminded me that feeling reminded me so much of what I heard some of the students that may be the level, maybe you said it.

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Deborah Robinson: On the 50th anniversary.

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Deborah Robinson: That DAS definitely feels like a family yeah and so that's the feeling that I had and felt very supported in that way.

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Deborah Robinson: Since.

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Deborah Robinson: I know I felt very comfortable I cast and just you know hung out because.

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Deborah Robinson: I knew nisha I knew well to Alan Tom hold the era, you know I think lineal was the.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: head at one point, Mr Johnson at some point yeah.

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Deborah Robinson: um and then I remember it because I found a picture even my kind of going away party when I finally did leave Ann arbor was elder cast.

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Oh.

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Deborah Robinson: And I found pictures of me, giving a going away party to nisha I think it was an 83 when she first left at my house.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh so.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah it was it was good, it was a long time ago.

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yeah.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Thanks for sharing, that is a bit stories that we want to be a year and then during creation and just to backtrack a little bit I want you to tell us more about you know your collaboration.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: You had mentioned, and how you've done some little starts with initial, can you tell us a little is not only engagement, you had with past at that time, or do you have some other things you've been doing with us, or some other engagements or collaborations basically.

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Deborah Robinson: So I think the first collaboration was the work on the immigration study, hoping that was an 83 and I was a research assistant to Dr Dr Carson.

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Deborah Robinson: um so that was an 83 and then.

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Deborah Robinson: I was trying to find some.

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Deborah Robinson: Some paperwork on this I forgot when the University of Michigan develop this partnership at the national University of the beginning it was around eight.

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Deborah Robinson: Who maybe 83.

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Deborah Robinson: So.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm yeah it was either 83 or 84 early at for that three faculty came from national university opening to Michigan one was a psychologist and I work with.

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Deborah Robinson: him Professor yay and we develop this huge project to do at the national University of winning so I went as kind of under that umbrella partnership umbrella in 1985.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Then i'm trying to I had a cheat sheet over here.

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Deborah Robinson: In 88.

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Deborah Robinson: You know I did this.

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Deborah Robinson: orientation, so there was a I guess around the summer in 1988 there was a West African study abroad and.

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Deborah Robinson: So do I remember doing this, no but I.

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Deborah Robinson: You know I kind of remember I did the pre and post pre tour and post tour evaluation.

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Deborah Robinson: But there was this whole.

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Deborah Robinson: orientation that included Dr Alan Roberts surely clarkson me.

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Deborah Robinson: Dr Joanne hall i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Dr nisha hanif you know number of people for this and the students went to a number of countries, do you guys have information on that.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: that's part of what we're trying to track down I think some of those might be in the archive um but part of what we're trying to do is reconstruct the history of study abroad.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah so I believe, because I put in this, so I could send, I have two copies of this orientation packet.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: That would be great.

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Deborah Robinson: But they had dineen Gambia Ghana Ivory Coast, Nigeria, Senegal, that was a crazy and Tokyo so i'm assuming they hit all of those countries, because otherwise, why would we put this in here, but I don't have the itinerary of.

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Deborah Robinson: You know when they did what but I.

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Deborah Robinson: I believe it was in 88.

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Deborah Robinson: So I was at and then at nine was the.

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Deborah Robinson: I had already left Ann arbor but since Dr nisha Hannah was doing the study abroad and it seemed great and and a lot of folks I knew going um I did the study abroad in Barbados and actually my father was excited about it, so he joined also.

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Deborah Robinson: in Barbados.

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uh huh.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: that's a lovely.

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No.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Yes, I saw those pictures that you sent of you and your father standing together in Barbados.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah what's again crazy in those some of the pictures, I sent um I am speaking during that.

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Deborah Robinson: study abroad i'm on a panel.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Yes, I saw that I.

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Deborah Robinson: cannot tell you what I was talking about.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't have the agenda um so you know I would love to then really see what you guys have because it will help me create.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Sure sure so just to sorry go ahead.

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Deborah Robinson: No i'm this.

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Deborah Robinson: Article so the bunnymen project that we could talk about more.

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Deborah Robinson: In detail, but it ended up being we were doing a survey of students at the national university janine Dr Walter Allen did a survey of students in Zimbabwe and we did a survey of students African American students at Michigan.

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Deborah Robinson: So we did this whole study and I have this huge final report.

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Deborah Robinson: But in 92 I couldn't find it, but in a cast.

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Deborah Robinson: publication.

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Deborah Robinson: Walter and I wrote this thing ethnicity, the problem of the 21st century, a preliminary examination of the significance of race, national identity and ethnicity, in a global African diaspora.

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Deborah Robinson: And it's in the voices.

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Deborah Robinson: Of the African diaspora and it's that's a publication.

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Deborah Robinson: have cast, and this was in 92.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So interesting.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: I know some interesting things for sharing those I think you probably might have alleviated some of this before I handed over to my colleague.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: I just wanted you to share some of the most interest what did you like about this story about what you like about your experiences and past generally isn't any unforgettable and memorable experience you probably like to share with us.

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Deborah Robinson: You know what I that's the hard we're talking 40 years ago so just because there is one that I will share but it's not like the.

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Deborah Robinson: The most earth shaking but I guess it did have a major impact on me, so I can I can still remember it but.

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Deborah Robinson: I will say that clearly I just I did have a good feeling being in cast and like a welcoming feeling even we said we'll talk about it at another time, but the the campaign that I did during the anti apartheid movement.

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Deborah Robinson: On political prisoners serving life sentence cassie even wrote about that you know in some of the publications so.

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Deborah Robinson: That was really a bar part of cast as well, in a sense, because I was doing it and.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: They moved on.

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Deborah Robinson: So they experienced that every I remember really need to write about this okay Stephen nandan is his name, he was a speaker.

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Deborah Robinson: From.

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Deborah Robinson: London you the director of this Institute of race relations may be in London and he's from Sri Lanka it very.

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Deborah Robinson: brown darker skin.

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Deborah Robinson: And so during the presentation, you know, he said, well, but you know.

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Deborah Robinson: Not like the kind of black person i'm used to.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh.

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Deborah Robinson: During the presentation and you know, he was saying well being being black and other than being black and you know so i'm looking at some of the other people, and so we.

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Deborah Robinson: You know, asked about that, because this was just not something we understood and he said well know, being black in the in the in a political sense of being definitely in London, he was oppressed as a.

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Deborah Robinson: As a as a darker skinned person as a black person, and so we had a whole discussion about that well, I was fascinated like.

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Deborah Robinson: This black person want to go go see that you know experience that and and I, so I went.

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Deborah Robinson: I did it as a part of a after the experience in the need and the study that we did it was clear to get funding to really do what we had planned as a part of the Michigan dineen collaboration we really needed to focus on development issues and I had no background in development so.

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Deborah Robinson: I decided to.

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Deborah Robinson: I need to attend the Society for International Development and it was that year, I think it was 88 was.

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Deborah Robinson: held in India, let me just hop over to Sri Lanka from there, and so anyway so Stephen I wanted to talk also, I was very impressed because he was showing they create these great publications about how racism.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: came to.

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Deborah Robinson: Britain and it's in a cartoon form but very, very powerful, as I think I even got involved with selling those for him in the US.

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Deborah Robinson: But yeah so his talk was very enlightening and very you know expanded my consciousness of Okay, what is what is black what is being.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: handed over to.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: You.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Thanks that's so interesting Thank you i'm so i'm Tara i'm a PhD student in history yeah do you em i'm in my sixth year so getting towards the end and from South Africa and i'm also working on a history of land struggles in South Africa and South africa's land restitution Program.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So actually going off the lap i'm going to vary up our question i'm outline a bit because I want to go off something that Deborah was just talking about now, and so one of the things that we're we're interested in in finding out is and.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: If you could speak a bit more broadly about going off, for instance, what you mentioned, of the Sri Lankan man's talk.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And kind of consciousness around or around as you put it to what it is to be black and so on, so i'm interested in what were the sort of intellectual, political interests that propelled you towards these connections between Africa and African diaspora.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: I know that's a big question.

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Deborah Robinson: um.

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Deborah Robinson: I think.

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Deborah Robinson: I always had an international.

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Deborah Robinson: Interest, I remember, was in high school or during college, maybe during college one summer.

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Deborah Robinson: We had an international student, you know stay with our family.

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Deborah Robinson: It was just a short short time it wasn't a semester, when I was an undergrad.

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Deborah Robinson: I was.

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Deborah Robinson: disturbed I guess.

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Deborah Robinson: By the.

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Deborah Robinson: Problems in the relationships between African Americans and African students and I was like what why can't we have a better communication here, there was just so much misunderstanding and you know, during that time, also the whole anti party thing was happening.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And we can talk about that feel free to to bring that in as well.

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Deborah Robinson: The whole thing.

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Deborah Robinson: But i'm so sorry, so the question was how did I get.

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Deborah Robinson: into these.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: yeah and to how did you get interested in these connections and what your YouTube to this work that you've been doing both neck during your time in casts and deaths, but it seems like it's been an interest throughout your life.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah and I think there were different periods of international interest.

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Deborah Robinson: So, with the whole relationship of African as an African Americans.

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Deborah Robinson: I was just really interested in Africa and learning more about Africa, and I must.

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Deborah Robinson: thank my my father who had long term interest in Africa, so when I was going to but nene I also then tagged on it was 85 trip to Kenya for the NGO women's conference in Kenya.

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Deborah Robinson: So I went from.

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Deborah Robinson: The name to Kenya and then I went to Ivory Coast and my father said Oh, I think I come join you.

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Deborah Robinson: This was 85 before the 89 joining.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: To come to me.

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Deborah Robinson: But it, you know it was.

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Deborah Robinson: that's a whole other so I said Daddy i'm going to need to do this work, you know, let me do some of it, you know so he came a little a little later.

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Deborah Robinson: So the interest in Africa and then became the interest in the African diaspora, you know where people went and, for instance in 1990.

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Deborah Robinson: I left for a six week trip to South West Pacific that ended up being six months.

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Deborah Robinson: But just really interested in.

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Deborah Robinson: In melanie's Asia.

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Deborah Robinson: No black people and and Melanie Asia and there's a whole story, I was on the beach, and I was looking at a book and a friend had about the South Pacific and looking at.

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Deborah Robinson: The melon Asia versus the Polynesia part and in Vanuatu they had picture Father welter lindy was the first president and.

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Deborah Robinson: goes back black people look like the black people you know so i'm from Los Angeles central avenue is a very famous place I don't know in Detroit what street is like the street for black people but.

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Deborah Robinson: The folks involved a lot to looked like me, and you know different from the high point of getting highlanders and so.

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Deborah Robinson: I gotta go to funnel watch, so you know, so I have this interest I have done many self directed study abroad programs, and so you know, then it was like the African diaspora, and now it's.

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Deborah Robinson: The African American diaspora where did, and I would say.

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Deborah Robinson: At Michigan state Dr Ruth sims Hamilton who directed the African diaspora research project and it was just a fabulous initiatives actually spoke there about identity in.

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Deborah Robinson: In melanie's Asia, you know after I did that trip so um.

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Deborah Robinson: I I don't know because sometimes I wonder how is it I got this bug but maybe some of the Friends I grew up with you know because i've traveled to like 75 countries, and I still have a lot more to go so yeah what what.

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Deborah Robinson: And, and sometimes it's a personal relationships.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know if i'ma tell the whole story on the tape, but it was a party in Detroit the first in 82 it was the first time I met anyone from South Africa these these two brothers from South Africa and it's a whole whole thing but i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Across crush was involved in this story Oh, but anyway, as I drove back they had made such an impression on me as I drove from Detroit back to Ann arbor and in like June 1982.

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Deborah Robinson: I started thinking what had I done in terms of banter party movement, and so I was involved with divestment.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: One woman.

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Deborah Robinson: done and in the when I was in junior high I was a bracelet brass bracelet have a.

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Deborah Robinson: field pow am I a person from Vietnam War and you want to kill the person was found or whatever um so it was that drive back it was after that party after the crush that.

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Deborah Robinson: influenced me or.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah to create the South African prisoner based Program.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: makes sense, and I think the personal.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: The personal is political and vice versa, and that way so yeah that makes sense um.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So i'm interested sort of link to that and to the you know thinking about the connections between Africans and African Americans as well.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: What was it like working with narrow Su Casa, because I know sort of her approach she was interested as well in bringing African studies, together with African American studies What was it like working with.

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Deborah Robinson: You know I enjoyed working with her, I learned a lot but.

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Deborah Robinson: You know I can't give any specifics.

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Deborah Robinson: We work closely together for that time.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: To get that come oh.

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Deborah Robinson: But i'm sorry I can't you know it was really that continued after.

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Deborah Robinson: You know, after that program after she went to Lincoln.

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Deborah Robinson: So it was something and I got to know her son Michael who's in South Africa now.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And maybe you could tell us a little bit dull APP where you can also jump in here a bit more about.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: that have been in collaboration, the university have been in collaboration and what that involved, and both sort of in terms of the activities, but also in terms of their relationships that developed between between students and faculty on both of you M and binion.

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Deborah Robinson: Again I can't tell you the comprehensive i've you know I could send you the objectives of that partnership.

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Deborah Robinson: of you know, the goals.

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Deborah Robinson: So the goals of what we were proposing sat down and said I read that or.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: it's up to you, you can also just whatever you, you know struck you about that collaboration and doesn't have to be you know specific or a specific.

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Deborah Robinson: Well, just in in general, the collaboration between the two universities, you know to do faculty exchanges and development on on side and do interdisciplinary research so when the three faculty came to Michigan.

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Deborah Robinson: I kind of hung out and work with all of them, but Professor yay was the in psychology so it was talking with him that we developed this.

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Deborah Robinson: idea of to do a preliminary study and get the students involved and get the Faculty involved, so you know I had been trained really at that point quite extensively in survey research methodology at the Institute for social research, so I had I had that background.

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Deborah Robinson: And I was I worked with Professor da and a graduate student can't remember his name at this point, but the team also included.

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Deborah Robinson: Because we were also doing Zimbabwe.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: You know it's.

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Deborah Robinson: kind of a part of it, and so, Dr Walter Allen was leading that up and then the Professor there because I think cats already had a relationship with the University of Zimbabwe and.

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Deborah Robinson: so soon kind of combining those two but Dr subtly.

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Deborah Robinson: He was a professor in the department of political science up political, administrative studies at the University of Zimbabwe and Dr Gemini Camara who I knew very well and no, no, his wife very well, we danced in but you to be accountable together.

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Deborah Robinson: So Gemini was involved and Dr phil Bowman what's involved as well, so.

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Deborah Robinson: Part of it was.

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Deborah Robinson: You know just seeing what's the capacity and trying to do something that we could do so, it was with the students but I remember, I went to the.

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Deborah Robinson: insane.

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Deborah Robinson: Whatever the National Institute even been mean that's kind of their statistical institute just see what kind of.

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Deborah Robinson: maps and you know, I was used to drawing a sample.

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Deborah Robinson: probability sample but you know we have to have census tracts, we have to have you know maps and to what extent they have that and it was very, very basic at that time.

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Deborah Robinson: So it was an incredible experience for me.

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Deborah Robinson: I write something that at that time I was a strict vegetarian, I was the woman, I did not have my PhD at that time, but I was working with a male man Professor.

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Deborah Robinson: Ah, OK, but I knew the survey research, and this was new to him um um and I had gotten funding.

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Deborah Robinson: From the Vice President of research and Michigan and I think ask.

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Deborah Robinson: amy got from.

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Deborah Robinson: This society for.

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Deborah Robinson: social issues, some professional side that I don't even remember at this point so i've gotten about $6,000 to do this project, so I mean I had some grant money but we didn't have money to pay, we should have maybe i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Professor yea yea in the student, but then I have to pay so it was it was a very interesting.

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um.

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Deborah Robinson: I was young, you know.

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Deborah Robinson: position to be in, and I should also say this was my first trip to Africa, so I came I came all these expectations and basically early on, I was told well you're an American know.

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Deborah Robinson: In America, said no, and so we had these.

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Deborah Robinson: Debates really.

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Deborah Robinson: It was very ah surprising, but they look you have benefited from the American system and.

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Deborah Robinson: Not only that you, you walk like an American you talk like America everybody could see me coming, this is an American.

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Deborah Robinson: So.

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Deborah Robinson: It was just.

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Deborah Robinson: very, very challenging very rewarding very.

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Deborah Robinson: You know a lot of learning and I think you, you really learn the most when you're challenged.

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Deborah Robinson: In that way, I mean, as another quick story as a part of this time I was there.

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Deborah Robinson: Perfect Professor yay took a it was a small group of us, they went to this fishing village.

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Deborah Robinson: Great learning seeing something new Baba Baba and from this village, they were going to go to another village to get fish they need, you know to for food and and there was this French guy also with this group of white guy.

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Deborah Robinson: And I was told well the two the two yoko's to to white people.

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Deborah Robinson: The French guy and me needed to stay not go with them, because it would increase the price of the fish is like.

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Deborah Robinson: we're just very interested.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: About about you know.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: A better way to contention, I mean some of the issues around africanist and African American I think I just wanted to ask by we'll just follow up to that question, do you think the endo I mean if you look back now over time, but you know finally accepted in those cultures.

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Deborah Robinson: I you know I felt I felt accepted.

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Deborah Robinson: Okay, but not as.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: You know you get a lot of African Americans go to Africa i'm going home i'm going, you know my brothers and sisters So yes, brothers and sisters, but i'm not in their ethnic group.

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Deborah Robinson: And I could see yeah i'm an American right, and so I could see that, so I had i've always had fabulous experiences wherever i've gone, you know with the relationships of folks and I think it's the attitude you you go with that's true yeah in fact in that orientation.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know what I was what I said and what I was supposed to be talking about but i'm the last part of the orientation, I was speaking on creating positive energy for a positive experience.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: You know.

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Deborah Robinson: So.

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Deborah Robinson: I really think it's.

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Deborah Robinson: I remember when I was at the women's conference in Kenya.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh God, there was some African American women who would just complaining complaining and complaining, you know and it's like because things weren't what they were used.

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Deborah Robinson: Or what they expected or what they're used to and it's like okay hold up you didn't come here.

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Deborah Robinson: To have the exact same experience.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: one.

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Deborah Robinson: story about South Africa, so I.

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Deborah Robinson: Had the part of the party was an 82.

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Deborah Robinson: But I started researching.

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Deborah Robinson: That this other the pow program and there was just a real heavy antiwar sentiment at the time when I was part of that breakthrough program so in 82 there were things at some campuses but there wasn't a huge.

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Deborah Robinson: feeling nationally, you know about the anti apartheid movement so um but at in thanksgiving in 1984 when randall Robinson Mary Frances Barry Walter fauntleroy and Eleanor Holmes Norton sat in at the South African embassy thanksgiving.

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Deborah Robinson: night.

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Deborah Robinson: That hit every newspaper, you know that these Congress people and these high level officials sat in at the South African embassy, so I said oh my gosh, this is it, this is the moment for the brace of Program.

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Deborah Robinson: You knows, I have to find out well anyway.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm digressing the point I wanted to make is finally in.

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Deborah Robinson: 89 i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Reverend man good when it from hartford memorial.

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Deborah Robinson: Baptist church invited me to take a group from the church to South Africa for the unveiling of his.

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Deborah Robinson: mother's tombstone.

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Deborah Robinson: hmm and 89 I had been.

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Deborah Robinson: So many so many places it's like.

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Deborah Robinson: there's no way I could afford to go to South Africa after I had been in Geneva, Kenya and to the Barbados Trinidad you know.

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Deborah Robinson: So actually I got I was able to get funding really quickly from the world Council of Churches and the National Council of Churches to interview the families or the LIFE prisoners.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: In.

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Deborah Robinson: So I went in at nine, but I was telling someone something that Okay, this is partied you know this is 89 right.

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yeah.

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Deborah Robinson: And um I was living with a family in pikeville in Soweto.

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Deborah Robinson: You know, within the first week I went to.

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Deborah Robinson: A wedding you know and like a celebration.

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Deborah Robinson: And it was so it was like but it's a party, you know i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: manatee and you know people's life went on, even under this oppressive.

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Deborah Robinson: regime and situation and under apartheid and and it's sometimes you don't hear about that that.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah people still got married people still fell in love people still while they're getting shot they're doing this, you know Campo these other things so um you know just sometimes it's the experience of going that.

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Deborah Robinson: You could read, I mean I have read so much you know about you know i'm not all the conferences.

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Deborah Robinson: But when you go.

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Deborah Robinson: In fact, to live, for example, for you.

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Deborah Robinson: as well, is that the world Council of Churches, so I finally work at the world Council of Churches program to combat racism, for four years and i'm we were asked oh gosh I forget his name.

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Deborah Robinson: Of.

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Deborah Robinson: Cancer we were cancer, we were.

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Deborah Robinson: was a leader in in most have no guney land near port harcourt yeah and in the oil producing area, you know i've been involved in, but so he had requested that the.

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Guy.

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Deborah Robinson: I mean, he requested the world Council of Churches to come and look at the situation.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm just trying to think what the point I was.

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Deborah Robinson: up, so I went.

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Deborah Robinson: Nigeria are there, a lot of stories of you know guns drawn going under a botches regime.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: man.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm sure you.

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Deborah Robinson: Were you were even born.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: When he died oh.

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Deborah Robinson: i'm.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So that was you're talking about like so that the experience of the reality, being the.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: people's lives go on yeah.

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Deborah Robinson: Well, lives go on, but just the whole issue of being on the ground and.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: In being on the ground.

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Deborah Robinson: So so there's a whole stories how we smell golden guardian undercover into the land, but i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Seeing from some environmental devastation from 1970 and seeing it in.

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Deborah Robinson: 9797 i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: It it was a whole different thing and then also understanding how the pipeline's mom.

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Deborah Robinson: functioned in in Nigeria, how they would have to go through a guney lands so, even though they had stopped allegedly stopped pumping oil from Ogoni land they were bringing oil from other places, you know going through a goon 11 so there was definitely still opportunity for.

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Deborah Robinson: oil spills and other things, and you couldn't really see it you couldn't.

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Deborah Robinson: comprehend fully without being there you know the other thing all these billions of dollars of oil pumped out of a guney land and the gas stations.

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Deborah Robinson: They didn't have electricity, so you are your hand pumping gas to put in a big container to put in a smaller container to put in your car after billions of dollars have been.

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Deborah Robinson: taken out of out of the out of that region and the Shell complex, so this Community didn't have electricity the Shell complex I would you know we were driving at night, all these lights.

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Deborah Robinson: Across the street dark you know, and so, sometimes i'm.

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Deborah Robinson: Like I want to get on a plane and go somewhere, right now, you know, unless you're there to really talk and.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Experience you miss you miss certain things.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: yeah Thank you so much, I.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Really relate to some of those things will be class the next one pow again.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh prisoners of war and missing in action.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh yeah the four prisoners of war or missing an action for the Vietnam War.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Right so in the context of the South Africa bracelet program that you were that you're running was that political prisoners.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: mk people missing more.

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Deborah Robinson: So I had to think how am I going to do this and.

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Deborah Robinson: I couldn't do like.

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Deborah Robinson: Everybody imprisoned for everybody i'm missing.

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Deborah Robinson: And so it's really talking with antsy and swapo that.

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Deborah Robinson: We came up with you know we couldn't even do all prisoners because people were being arrested and released all the time, you know.

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yeah.

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Deborah Robinson: International Defense in eight on.

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Deborah Robinson: And fabulous newsletter, and so it was going to be easier to follow what's happening with a light the prisoner sentenced to life.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And it.

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Deborah Robinson: At five they were like 44.

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Deborah Robinson: cents life on Robben island and.

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Deborah Robinson: eight.

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Deborah Robinson: About 18 of those were Namibian prisoners who had been.

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Deborah Robinson: alone and put on trial in South Africa and imprisoned on Robben island.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Right, because the party government occupied Namibia as well Southwest Africa right running sense and.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know if I told you here, or I was talking with a colleague earlier.

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Deborah Robinson: On 2015 was the 30th anniversary of the release of those Namibian prisoners, so we started the space program March.

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Deborah Robinson: 1985 but by November those 18 who had been in prison for quite a while or release, though in 2015 um I contacted my friends and in Namibia saying hey.

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Deborah Robinson: Oh, what are you going to do for the 30th anniversary of the release of the Namibian prisoners.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know if anything I don't know I don't know so I said, oh no, we have to do something so within a month.

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Deborah Robinson: We got this program together that really turned out to be fabulous I forgot the name it's the national independence museum I think in vendor and we had 200 people there for this program of commemoration and I had.

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Deborah Robinson: Put in a nice frame something i'm the actual bracelets.

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Deborah Robinson: Of the.

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Deborah Robinson: And you know because we had a information booklet also about political prisoners, the main security laws they were tried under blah blah blah, so I presented that to the director of the museum and then that's a part of the.

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Deborah Robinson: museum at this point to know hey there was this basic program hey all these Americans and other folks were were you know war bracelets and wrote you know to to people.

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Deborah Robinson: there's a whole theory about.

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Deborah Robinson: joyful yeah teufel we have time we'll get to it.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Together yeah I think what we wanted me to hear a little bit more about the study abroad, and I think yeah like.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: you're talking about you picking some some.

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access.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: To the study abroad programs, you have to take your students to study abroad to study abroad program, why do you have to go.

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Deborah Robinson: Okay, I won't say I took them because I wasn't in charge.

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Deborah Robinson: For Dr hanif can nisha hannah's her program included a huge.

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Deborah Robinson: Maybe 20.

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Deborah Robinson: Students so students went that mean that was the main purpose, there were some faculty who went, but it was mainly it was a student abroad and then for the What was it the 88 West African study abroad that was that was for students.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah okay.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: So just to follow up to that um I think what would you think impact was for students going over Africa, how did that impact your learning experience overall or educational and you know carry on pursuit and the likes.

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Deborah Robinson: Okay, I can't speak to I really can't speak to anyone, because either place, I really wasn't there for the West African study abroad and hey if somewhere in your archives or files, there was a pre I created this pre tour evaluation and post.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: to remember oh yeah.

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Deborah Robinson: I think it would be great because it would get at some of those.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Things in.

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Deborah Robinson: terms of their experiences and.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: So natural Council members student, I mean the funding you got about taking some students from the Baptist church to some pot in Africa, did you go with the students as well, you did not okay.

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Deborah Robinson: Okay, so for the funding I got from the Okay, so when you're fighting two different things.

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Deborah Robinson: Reverend natty you're trying to take some people from his church to go to South Africa have really happened.

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Deborah Robinson: But part of that he invited me to go and as if I have any money and we came up with this idea oh try to get some money from world Council of Churches and national conferences, so I was able to get funding to go, but I could and that's how I went to South Africa, I mean.

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Deborah Robinson: I didn't know about failing and I in pivotal I was staying with Reverend yachties relatives.

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Deborah Robinson: there.

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Deborah Robinson: Many, many delegations.

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Deborah Robinson: That was very involved in.

376
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Deborah Robinson: The United Nations, the World Summit on Sustainable Development in the World Conference Against Racism.

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Deborah Robinson: hmm so.

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Deborah Robinson: We did preparatory meetings in various countries and took delegations to the World Conference um I was around the students who went to the study abroad in Barbados and.

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Deborah Robinson: I could just say i'm a firm believer in international experience, I think it is, I think it's like should be a requirement for all undergrads and graduate students if they haven't gone before.

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Deborah Robinson: I think, but just fyi.

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Deborah Robinson: I definitely want to do a create a study abroad, looking at African Americans living abroad so.

382
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Deborah Robinson: Go to come on countries to meet with African Americans there and look at the contributions African Americans have made.

383
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Deborah Robinson: So yeah I think.

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Deborah Robinson: I think it's essential I think it's essential I hope DAS is doing some are you guys still doing study abroad programs.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Yes, so I believed not not at the moment because of the pandemic it's been.

386
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And from what I understand dresses having to do some restructuring around study abroad because, given the pandemic the.

387
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: The regulations are so much more rigid than they were previously so.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So part of actually part of what it's great to hear this from you, because part of what what I want to do with this project is also help Matthew countryman, to make a case for why study abroad is so important.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And and doing it in the way that you described in this way that's that is sensitive and.

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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: and help students navigate both the commonalities and differences that they might encounter with people in on the ground in different countries, so yeah, so I think that your experiences are so so vital and so interesting that regard to.

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But.

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Deborah Robinson: yeah I mean I think they were even then there's been research and literature on.

393
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Deborah Robinson: roles role of international experience on the development of leaders.

394
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Deborah Robinson: mm hmm so yeah in this in a 21st century it's not do one, you need to do to study abroad us, you know to um yeah it would be great if.

395
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Deborah Robinson: I don't I don't know if.

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Deborah Robinson: I don't know if undergrad students would have this maybe graduate students, but you know even funds for students hey I have an idea I want to do this, you know funds available, so they could do their own.

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Deborah Robinson: i've done 50 million of those just hey I gotta go check this out, you know.

398
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: mm hmm.

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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: actually brings me to my next question I was gonna ask you like how that this international experience how do they impact your own carrier pursuit, I mean i've heard a lot of that and.

400
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: You know how you've been speaking, you know, over the course of the interview, but you know in concise and precise words how has that shaped your.

401
00:50:52.140 --> 00:51:00.480
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: pursuit your carrier or, particularly where you're at right now, do you think it has impacted is in some way that's across part of the question, the second part is.

402
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: If you were to look back now and what would you do differently in some of the study abroad programs well what would you did you think you check all the boxes on If not, how would you approach it better in you know coming yes.

403
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: or tell younger ones like we proposing study abroad programs for you know scholars and what advice would you tell them like this is the way you should do it, and do it this way.

404
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Deborah Robinson: Okay, I think three questions so you have to remind me Okay, so the first one.

405
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Deborah Robinson: It has impacted every every part of my life, you know.

406
00:51:38.130 --> 00:51:40.980
Deborah Robinson: The international experience the even.

407
00:51:42.480 --> 00:51:44.160
Deborah Robinson: How people view me.

408
00:51:45.810 --> 00:51:52.680
Deborah Robinson: Today, you know it's like oh she's she's the global person, you know she's the international person.

409
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Deborah Robinson: I created for the bracelet program and then again like for real organization international possibilities unlimited.

410
00:52:04.890 --> 00:52:07.020
Deborah Robinson: One it embodies who I am.

411
00:52:08.220 --> 00:52:12.180
Deborah Robinson: it's my spirit, but then also I firmly believe.

412
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Deborah Robinson: That social justice issues can be solved, but it needs an international perspective and influence you know I got it, I was never interested in an MBA.

413
00:52:26.490 --> 00:52:36.780
Deborah Robinson: So I ran IPU international possibilities are unlimited and that's when we did a lot of work with the with the UN and the World Conference it's racism at least um.

414
00:52:38.760 --> 00:52:43.500
Deborah Robinson: But I I was pretty successful raising money um.

415
00:52:44.850 --> 00:52:56.460
Deborah Robinson: But I felt I needed more management skills to really run this organization or and that a lot of nonprofits really need I could benefit from using.

416
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Deborah Robinson: Some business type approaches to run things so I.

417
00:53:05.040 --> 00:53:19.470
Deborah Robinson: I saw his various people wanted to set I should get an MBA get no no i'm not interested in regular business stuff but there was this MBA program at the University of Geneva, and it was specializing in international organizations.

418
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Deborah Robinson: that's it.

419
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Deborah Robinson: So I love Geneva I loved working at the world Council of Churches, in Geneva, I loved.

420
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Deborah Robinson: You know, working with all those international organizations, so I did the MBA and I really thought I would get a job, I mean that was my goal to get a job in Geneva, that one of these international organizations.

421
00:53:42.480 --> 00:53:44.430
Deborah Robinson: But my father um.

422
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Deborah Robinson: I had alzheimer's and.

423
00:53:48.840 --> 00:53:56.580
Deborah Robinson: I had to decide before hey should I do this now what should I do, and you know monster no go ahead and do the MBA, but when I finished.

424
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Deborah Robinson: And I was just going to go home put a few things in place, but within a week I knew I would have to move back to Los Angeles, to assist my parents so got the nba to move back, and so, for being this very international I got very local with my family and.

425
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Some.

426
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Deborah Robinson: Alright, so what was your second question.

427
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: The second question is over time, like what would you change.

428
00:54:30.330 --> 00:54:31.740
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Like, what do you think will change.

429
00:54:33.150 --> 00:54:34.680
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: With the abroad programs.

430
00:54:37.260 --> 00:54:40.410
Deborah Robinson: Well i'll answer what would I do differently.

431
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Deborah Robinson: yeah with study abroad well.

432
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Not only study abroad programs yes.

433
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Deborah Robinson: it's just pitiful that I never learned to language I speak a little French a little Spanish but i'm not fluid and to be so international and not be fluid another language that's pathetic i'm.

434
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Deborah Robinson: Thinking about the study abroad Oh, and I should say, I never did study abroad, when I was an undergrad.

435
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: mm hmm.

436
00:55:10.710 --> 00:55:12.150
Deborah Robinson: And so um.

437
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Deborah Robinson: I had this kind of Internet thing but, but you know why I think one none of my friends were doing it, I didn't know anybody who was doing it, and there was no outreach nobody Williams really said hey What about study abroad.

438
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Deborah Robinson: So I think it's very important I don't I don't know how it's done now at Michigan, but I think it's really important to just encourage and show the students, especially you know.

439
00:55:46.500 --> 00:55:53.040
Deborah Robinson: Especially if they're on scholarship well that scholarship could go towards the study abroad, so this will be the cheapest time.

440
00:55:54.240 --> 00:56:00.000
Deborah Robinson: To have this experience, so I think you need that kind of outreach and.

441
00:56:01.380 --> 00:56:14.400
Deborah Robinson: encouragement that hey you know this, this will be good, maybe you guys should do a publication with students who have done study abroad and just highlighting their experiences.

442
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: We are going to be talking to some more more recent US grads who who did study abroad during the undergrad right.

443
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Who also part of the desk community.

444
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: At the same time, so that'll be really interesting to right right.

445
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Deborah Robinson: And I don't know the third one, was what.

446
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Was, can I just just to be the question yeah.

447
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Yes.

448
00:56:39.780 --> 00:56:40.530
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Sorry sorry.

449
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Tara Mondesi Weinberg: No go ahead, go ahead.

450
00:56:42.570 --> 00:56:44.520
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Okay, I didn't have a follow up on that when you.

451
00:56:44.610 --> 00:56:45.810
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: When you finish it.

452
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Dolapo Raheemat Raji: I think it was like How would she have actually talked about about what that was more understood in past, but on the top of the study abroad program itself like How can that be improved, is there any room for improvement.

453
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Deborah Robinson: with you, I really wasn't um because I just participated, when you did the program I mean, I guess, I spoke, but I don't know why you know, so I wasn't organizing it I think she would know better what.

454
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Deborah Robinson: What worked what didn't work, I had a great time I thought the whole thing I liked we went to the Caribbean studies association conference.

455
00:57:22.980 --> 00:57:23.760
Deborah Robinson: As well as the.

456
00:57:23.820 --> 00:57:25.440
Deborah Robinson: program she put together.

457
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Deborah Robinson: yeah and then the, the one that I hardly remember West Africa that I yeah I clearly I was involved, but since I didn't go with the students I don't know what you know because i'm impressed what it's like five countries.

458
00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:53.400
Deborah Robinson: know and I don't know how long they were gone where they've gone the whole or months or so or three months so.

459
00:57:54.480 --> 00:57:57.630
Deborah Robinson: Because I think there are two models of study abroad, at least.

460
00:57:58.860 --> 00:58:01.410
Deborah Robinson: The traditional model is you go for semester.

461
00:58:01.500 --> 00:58:02.940
Deborah Robinson: or summer or.

462
00:58:03.000 --> 00:58:07.050
Deborah Robinson: Like a month, whatever go to one place study that.

463
00:58:09.300 --> 00:58:18.930
Deborah Robinson: International honors program that was out of Boston but then school for international training now runs that program and I used to work for school for international training.

464
00:58:20.070 --> 00:58:34.740
Deborah Robinson: Has a model, they study a an issue like climate change, and they go to four countries looking comparatively at that one issue I love that so that's the kind of model.

465
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Deborah Robinson: I would use.

466
00:58:38.130 --> 00:58:51.030
Deborah Robinson: When I organize a study abroad, you know it's it's more expensive, so I you know, would have to be priced out um and so and then maybe you could have different experiences i'm.

467
00:58:55.500 --> 00:59:06.960
Deborah Robinson: Like get your toe wet kind of experience, you know for people really hesitant, maybe somewhere in the Caribbean right isn't it that's a safe experience.

468
00:59:07.530 --> 00:59:17.430
Deborah Robinson: And then another level um and then maybe this comparative you know going all over for people who really feel comfortable you know you may also um.

469
00:59:18.510 --> 00:59:19.620
Deborah Robinson: One thing.

470
00:59:20.790 --> 00:59:25.290
Deborah Robinson: That I had suggested to fit or.

471
00:59:26.430 --> 00:59:31.350
Deborah Robinson: let's say African American students, but it may be other students as well i'm.

472
00:59:32.580 --> 00:59:34.680
Deborah Robinson: First Generation Students.

473
00:59:37.200 --> 00:59:41.160
Deborah Robinson: Depending if no one in their family has left the country.

474
00:59:42.210 --> 00:59:49.650
Deborah Robinson: You probably need an orientation that includes the parents or sisters or other family members to the.

475
00:59:49.650 --> 00:59:50.340
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: great idea.

476
00:59:51.510 --> 00:59:52.200
Deborah Robinson: lane.

477
00:59:53.340 --> 00:59:56.880
Deborah Robinson: You know what they come to do with their baby, you know.

478
00:59:57.420 --> 00:59:59.280
Deborah Robinson: What happened just.

479
01:00:00.780 --> 01:00:09.990
Deborah Robinson: just have a better sense so there's a level of comfort with the parents that okay now I now I know what what what are they going to do and.

480
01:00:13.590 --> 01:00:15.390
Deborah Robinson: Where is where is fun to watch.

481
01:00:15.780 --> 01:00:19.050
Deborah Robinson: You know, almost like an orientation for the parents.

482
01:00:19.230 --> 01:00:19.560
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: yeah.

483
01:00:19.800 --> 01:00:29.580
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: You actually raised a very important very, very important point, and thanks for sharing that I remember the shot actually if you dare to this to do an interview that allow parents were concerned.

484
01:00:30.000 --> 01:00:38.700
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: you're like would they even have a place to sleep sleep and trees over there, so it would make sense to orient family members as well just.

485
01:00:39.930 --> 01:00:41.010
Deborah Robinson: You know, and whether it's.

486
01:00:42.300 --> 01:00:48.150
Deborah Robinson: me could be in person now everything is zoom and sorry continue, I mean, I think.

487
01:00:49.650 --> 01:00:57.720
Deborah Robinson: Sometimes when you're talking about going abroad, leaving the country I think sometimes it needs a little bit more closer.

488
01:00:58.950 --> 01:01:04.860
Deborah Robinson: relationship and a face to face if possible would be, it would be important.

489
01:01:06.510 --> 01:01:06.900
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: yeah.

490
01:01:08.430 --> 01:01:21.690
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: i'm aware deborah's that we're we're at 130 so so it's been so fun talking to you and we can stick around if you have a bit more time, but it will start understand if you if you have other other things, you need to get onto.

491
01:01:23.280 --> 01:01:23.850
Deborah Robinson: Well, and.

492
01:01:25.080 --> 01:01:28.800
Deborah Robinson: i'm on a roll now, so you know, maybe 45 is fine.

493
01:01:29.250 --> 01:01:31.740
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Okay Okay, so another 15 minutes or so.

494
01:01:33.360 --> 01:01:40.980
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: So kind of following up on de la pose questions, one of the things I was thinking about is, as you were describing your experiences and benny.

495
01:01:41.520 --> 01:02:01.110
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And the kind of having to negotiate how people perceive you differently from what you, you may have expected and so on the other side of that coin, what would What would the experiences you found were okay hit his common ground, he has a way in which we identify with each other.

496
01:02:03.270 --> 01:02:03.690
Deborah Robinson: um.

497
01:02:05.310 --> 01:02:07.320
Deborah Robinson: You know, I think, even though we weren't.

498
01:02:11.790 --> 01:02:30.870
Deborah Robinson: Like family family, we were kind of family, so I was very I was very warmly welcomed you know so and I think they were very interested in doing the project so having that common task um.

499
01:02:31.890 --> 01:02:32.640
Deborah Robinson: I think helped.

500
01:02:32.700 --> 01:02:34.590
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Because, then how can we focus on something.

501
01:02:38.640 --> 01:02:39.270
Deborah Robinson: yeah.

502
01:02:39.720 --> 01:02:42.150
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: i'm building a project together.

503
01:02:42.360 --> 01:02:45.690
Deborah Robinson: yeah building the project together, I think it definitely helped.

504
01:02:46.800 --> 01:02:53.370
Deborah Robinson: Because Professor yay was here first so we got to you know there's so they were dinners I had I had them over my house, you know.

505
01:02:55.110 --> 01:02:56.490
Deborah Robinson: We got to know each other.

506
01:02:56.490 --> 01:03:01.680
Deborah Robinson: Here we continue the relationship and then you know, I was.

507
01:03:01.890 --> 01:03:05.970
Deborah Robinson: yeah I think it would have helped.

508
01:03:07.470 --> 01:03:08.610
Deborah Robinson: If somebody told me.

509
01:03:10.380 --> 01:03:14.040
Deborah Robinson: You know what to talk to me about some of my.

510
01:03:15.630 --> 01:03:21.390
Deborah Robinson: Expectations so it would have to have been listen African American talking to me about you know what.

511
01:03:21.630 --> 01:03:26.160
Deborah Robinson: So no thing I had you know, I was strict vegetarian I wasn't eating.

512
01:03:27.180 --> 01:03:41.730
Deborah Robinson: Fish any stuff so I stayed at this House for visiting scholars and they could not believe or understand why.

513
01:03:42.780 --> 01:03:55.140
Deborah Robinson: Not eating meat and not eating even fish, and it was it was it was such a well one I would have starved I would have starved you know because they didn't they didn't have what I was.

514
01:03:56.010 --> 01:03:58.950
Deborah Robinson: I was, I was the King of tofu and so you know.

515
01:04:00.240 --> 01:04:08.550
Deborah Robinson: I could do all the stuff so I had to I said okay i'll eat fish, because you know, I have to, so I think i'm.

516
01:04:09.990 --> 01:04:22.320
Deborah Robinson: really talking with students or people were going on study abroad and let's say okay that was 85 you know I had been from high school I did go on a.

517
01:04:23.940 --> 01:04:34.770
Deborah Robinson: 10 week 10 day two week trip to Greece with my school and it was classical alliance of Western states, so I was with some friends, but I think for.

518
01:04:35.880 --> 01:04:46.410
Deborah Robinson: So it wasn't my first time out of the country, but I had all these first time to Africa i'm going to Africa, you know I just all those PICs of.

519
01:04:47.580 --> 01:04:54.690
Deborah Robinson: Having because sometimes you have expectations that you don't even know about till it till your challenge till you're.

520
01:04:55.410 --> 01:05:03.960
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: sure you know yeah And what about in terms of the anti apartheid struggle, I know that, like.

521
01:05:04.470 --> 01:05:13.770
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: South Africans who are involved in political movements and Americans are involved in political movements talk about there's a sense of kind of shared dealing with.

522
01:05:14.460 --> 01:05:23.640
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: A white Racist Society and the struggle against that so so i'm wondering sort of what was that, like in terms of building solidarity.

523
01:05:26.340 --> 01:05:26.670
Deborah Robinson: um.

524
01:05:28.440 --> 01:05:29.340
Deborah Robinson: yeah well, I mean.

525
01:05:30.750 --> 01:05:38.520
Deborah Robinson: All of us saw those similarities, so I think that's why even Americans and African Americans.

526
01:05:41.250 --> 01:05:51.090
Deborah Robinson: Finally, got on it and understood it, even though they weren't weren't really understanding it and maybe didn't know all of the issues.

527
01:05:51.510 --> 01:05:54.210
Deborah Robinson: But they knew enough because it looks so similar.

528
01:05:54.330 --> 01:05:56.490
Deborah Robinson: That they could relate.

529
01:05:56.730 --> 01:05:58.350
Deborah Robinson: to it and, but I must say.

530
01:05:59.670 --> 01:06:02.280
Deborah Robinson: Some of the relationships and.

531
01:06:05.970 --> 01:06:16.680
Deborah Robinson: Working the folks i've worked with both here and in South Africa still friends, after all these years, there was this bonding.

532
01:06:18.450 --> 01:06:25.170
Deborah Robinson: that's really incredible that when I think about some of the people, oh yeah that's way back then, you know today and and party jake.

533
01:06:26.790 --> 01:06:33.180
Deborah Robinson: I must say, when I went for the first time to Namibia to do that, that thing in.

534
01:06:34.860 --> 01:06:39.090
Deborah Robinson: 20 oh yeah teufel was the Secretary General of swapo.

535
01:06:40.260 --> 01:06:44.310
Deborah Robinson: We had people write to the families of the political prisoners.

536
01:06:46.260 --> 01:06:49.560
Deborah Robinson: for South Africa was through the South African Council of Churches, the dependence.

537
01:06:49.560 --> 01:06:59.880
Deborah Robinson: conference or the Namibian prison prisoners, it was through swapo and we had gotten so someone had written the letter got to teufel yeah toy evil.

538
01:07:00.390 --> 01:07:07.800
Deborah Robinson: swapo he wrote back to this person from Ann arbor and she shared me share the letter with me.

539
01:07:08.220 --> 01:07:18.060
Deborah Robinson: And it was just amazing that the Secretary General, because he was saying Oh, please get this letter to this person's family in the north in Namibia, and you know you should keep.

540
01:07:18.660 --> 01:07:32.370
Deborah Robinson: records track a file of these kinds of letters because they're so important, there you know very important and so first time I went to them, maybe I I was, I was looking did they have a file in the north of I couldn't find the file.

541
01:07:33.270 --> 01:07:43.080
Deborah Robinson: I mean I couldn't find anyone who knew about the file but it's amazing as you see from this interview i'm not shy right i'm kind of talkative.

542
01:07:44.310 --> 01:07:47.730
Deborah Robinson: When I met toy toy, for the first time.

543
01:07:48.870 --> 01:07:53.100
Deborah Robinson: And I knew I was going to meet him, you know, so it comes around the corner and.

544
01:07:54.990 --> 01:07:57.330
Deborah Robinson: I was so taken aback.

545
01:07:58.800 --> 01:08:03.330
Deborah Robinson: I shake hands and he says, you know he introduced I said.

546
01:08:08.670 --> 01:08:10.260
Deborah Robinson: And he said at your family that.

547
01:08:15.450 --> 01:08:31.050
Deborah Robinson: I couldn't speak I was just so overwhelmed so Finally, you know, after a few minutes I got it together, and I was a we had a great job but it face, my friends, what you were you know but yeah.

548
01:08:32.100 --> 01:08:34.710
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: It was starstruck yeah.

549
01:08:35.910 --> 01:08:36.090
yeah.

550
01:08:37.710 --> 01:08:53.700
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Just a quick question about some of the beneath scholars who you said came to an aba for a while, as well do you by chance, and have contact details for them still would be interesting to find out what they thought what they experience of study abroad for them was like to.

551
01:08:54.030 --> 01:08:55.260
Deborah Robinson: See if they're still alive.

552
01:08:57.180 --> 01:09:03.270
Deborah Robinson: I think the most I could do is try to find the names I have got there.

553
01:09:04.440 --> 01:09:04.980
Deborah Robinson: You know.

554
01:09:06.990 --> 01:09:08.730
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: yeah and then we could try track them down.

555
01:09:09.660 --> 01:09:18.690
Deborah Robinson: yeah that I could because also, I have a letter from the rector of you know, saying i'm coming to study in this this and.

556
01:09:19.770 --> 01:09:28.140
Deborah Robinson: yeah So if you remind me i'll try to find that and then you could be if they're still at the university or if they still have contact you know.

557
01:09:28.650 --> 01:09:32.430
Deborah Robinson: Okay, but have you talked with Gemma dari Camara.

558
01:09:33.270 --> 01:09:37.560
Deborah Robinson: know you definitely need to talk with him because he then.

559
01:09:37.560 --> 01:09:38.010
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: did a.

560
01:09:39.840 --> 01:09:44.970
Deborah Robinson: Fulbright for like two years in at the national university.

561
01:09:46.020 --> 01:09:47.820
Okay yeah.

562
01:09:49.710 --> 01:09:50.040
Deborah Robinson: and

563
01:09:51.300 --> 01:09:57.210
Deborah Robinson: I mean you finished at Michigan and he was over, I mean Ann arbor, but I think he was the director of.

564
01:09:58.530 --> 01:10:00.000
Deborah Robinson: CAS at.

565
01:10:01.080 --> 01:10:03.900
Deborah Robinson: Another University of Michigan camp.

566
01:10:04.680 --> 01:10:05.820
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Oh very interesting.

567
01:10:06.210 --> 01:10:06.930
Deborah Robinson: Oh yeah but.

568
01:10:07.530 --> 01:10:10.560
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: We must definitely get in touch with him yeah.

569
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:17.010
Deborah Robinson: cuz I was, I was finding all kinds of things.

570
01:10:21.750 --> 01:10:26.460
Deborah Robinson: Black perspectives have you I don't even know if that's Michigan or.

571
01:10:29.550 --> 01:10:30.210
Deborah Robinson: Some place.

572
01:10:31.980 --> 01:10:32.100
place.

573
01:10:34.200 --> 01:10:37.470
Deborah Robinson: Oh no it's Gemma dark demagoguery was a part of this so.

574
01:10:38.760 --> 01:10:40.560
Deborah Robinson: I don't even see a year here.

575
01:10:43.320 --> 01:10:46.320
Deborah Robinson: Oh sorry December 1983 issue.

576
01:10:48.240 --> 01:10:50.190
Deborah Robinson: yeah, so I think.

577
01:10:52.320 --> 01:10:53.610
Deborah Robinson: Gemini may have files.

578
01:10:56.490 --> 01:11:03.030
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Ah, great and then lastly we're interested to hear a bit more about we global I know you mentioned us.

579
01:11:05.400 --> 01:11:06.960
Deborah Robinson: Okay, so.

580
01:11:09.450 --> 01:11:16.500
Deborah Robinson: There really has been an explosion of African Americans moving abroad so.

581
01:11:17.580 --> 01:11:23.490
Deborah Robinson: While people know about Josephine baker Richard Wright you know lengthen these.

582
01:11:25.140 --> 01:11:29.310
Deborah Robinson: In Paris in the 40s 50s 60s um.

583
01:11:32.190 --> 01:11:33.840
Deborah Robinson: People really don't know.

584
01:11:35.130 --> 01:11:40.710
Deborah Robinson: What African Americans are doing literally all over the world at this time, so.

585
01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.460
Deborah Robinson: whereas previously there may have been certain countries, obviously.

586
01:11:44.880 --> 01:11:49.860
Deborah Robinson: So, Dr gaines wrote a book on African Americans in Ghana.

587
01:11:50.430 --> 01:11:51.210
Deborah Robinson: None, but.

588
01:11:51.240 --> 01:11:53.280
Deborah Robinson: In the rights era.

589
01:11:53.640 --> 01:11:54.180
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: yeah.

590
01:11:54.240 --> 01:12:04.350
Deborah Robinson: Great book little bit about currently i'm Dr stovall wrote a party in the wire looking at African Americans Paris.

591
01:12:04.500 --> 01:12:11.220
Deborah Robinson: It was historically, but you know a little bit about Well he wrote that in 1996 so.

592
01:12:12.450 --> 01:12:18.750
Deborah Robinson: It was African Americans in Paris in 1996, and so I said.

593
01:12:21.000 --> 01:12:30.120
Deborah Robinson: Well, I said, we need a study looking globally of African Americans currently living abroad and initially I said.

594
01:12:30.960 --> 01:12:41.850
Deborah Robinson: I don't need a research team I just need context, because there are a lot of Facebook groups brothers and sisters of Kuwait brothers and sisters of South Korea brothers and sisters xyz.

595
01:12:42.360 --> 01:12:51.570
Deborah Robinson: In Ghana and so they're very different also types of organizations of African Americans in various places in Ghana there's a very.

596
01:12:52.770 --> 01:13:05.130
Deborah Robinson: well established traditional organization with dues elected members, they meet every third Sunday in their own building.

597
01:13:06.390 --> 01:13:16.140
Deborah Robinson: In Kenya there's this huge group it's a whatsapp group but hundreds of messages fly every day with this whatsapp group in.

598
01:13:17.220 --> 01:13:38.790
Deborah Robinson: In Kenya, so I said, let me identify like the moderators and those key people in various countries, because they would know tori Rogers in Bangkok, but they will know Deborah robbins by identified these people and they say yes we'll get them to the online survey um.

599
01:13:40.080 --> 01:13:47.130
Deborah Robinson: It just didn't work out as it's just hard to get people to answer an online survey.

600
01:13:48.750 --> 01:13:58.890
Deborah Robinson: But I think is really important, because people need, I think, African American young African Americans need to know hey not only can I study abroad in.

601
01:14:00.300 --> 01:14:01.020
Deborah Robinson: Thailand.

602
01:14:02.250 --> 01:14:10.050
Deborah Robinson: I could move to Thailand, I could live in Thailand, I could live in Nigeria, we won't go there, I could.

603
01:14:11.340 --> 01:14:16.560
Deborah Robinson: I could live in got it, you know so giving I think it's important to give.

604
01:14:17.400 --> 01:14:34.470
Deborah Robinson: Examples I want to tell the stories of African Americans living abroad, I want to let people know that it wasn't just in the 40s 50s 60s, but when I give talks on this I go back to the 1800s of African Americans who.

605
01:14:35.100 --> 01:14:46.170
Deborah Robinson: went abroad for different reasons, and what they did and and the contributions they're making so people, maybe don't know that Jackie Robinson, the famous baseball player.

606
01:14:47.070 --> 01:14:59.700
Deborah Robinson: his son has been in Tanzania for 30 or 40 years huge amount of time he's a coffee farmer in Tanzania, but he created a collective of it in a rural.

607
01:15:00.180 --> 01:15:19.200
Deborah Robinson: Coffee growing Harry he created this collective of coffee growers, so that they could bring their product to market at a better price that's incredible you know what there's a guy in Thailand who's doing a has a theater company there's a guy in.

608
01:15:20.610 --> 01:15:22.320
Deborah Robinson: Wait there, the story so.

609
01:15:23.490 --> 01:15:30.450
Deborah Robinson: it's that I want to get people to do the online survey, but I think I do need a research team, I need funding.

610
01:15:32.730 --> 01:15:36.780
Deborah Robinson: I want to do oral histories with with people to really tell.

611
01:15:36.780 --> 01:15:37.440
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Those stories.

612
01:15:37.860 --> 01:15:43.680
Deborah Robinson: But i've been working with libraries and museums also so I want to particularly with museums.

613
01:15:44.730 --> 01:15:48.930
Deborah Robinson: have an exhibit have some kind of way of huge.

614
01:15:49.230 --> 01:16:12.510
Deborah Robinson: mammal world and you touch Thailand and stories and information comes up you touch France you touch Nigeria you touch wherever but the whole idea is we global cuz we are, and right now the 93 people only who did the survey gets from 31 countries.

615
01:16:13.650 --> 01:16:30.990
Deborah Robinson: So that's really pretty amazing, so the reason why people have done research in Denmark or research in France and research in Ghana, is because it is very hard to do a global study, but I really think that's what's needed to.

616
01:16:31.620 --> 01:16:37.530
Deborah Robinson: capture the experiences, the diverse experience what what what's Curie.

617
01:16:39.150 --> 01:16:48.810
Deborah Robinson: Here at tiana doing in Brazil for six years, what is this brother Martin doing in Fiji for seven years.

618
01:16:51.150 --> 01:16:52.350
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: That was fascinating.

619
01:16:52.830 --> 01:16:54.780
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: fascinating such a great project.

620
01:16:56.280 --> 01:17:03.840
Deborah Robinson: So hey if DAS has the money and resources to have me be something, then, to help you with something i'm oh.

621
01:17:03.870 --> 01:17:04.170
yeah.

622
01:17:05.340 --> 01:17:10.470
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: cool we will definitely pass on yes pass it.

623
01:17:11.400 --> 01:17:16.290
Deborah Robinson: yeah you know even to write up all this stuff from all these different.

624
01:17:17.820 --> 01:17:20.010
Deborah Robinson: experiences and the International.

625
01:17:23.100 --> 01:17:24.060
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: sounds fantastic.

626
01:17:25.290 --> 01:17:29.520
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Thank you for sharing Thank you Thank you so much, I guess, we are wrapping up right now.

627
01:17:29.970 --> 01:17:40.260
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: yeah yeah, but do you have any final words any last words of thought that's probably the actual questions, but you really wanted us to get about before my next call it okay.

628
01:17:41.400 --> 01:17:52.260
Deborah Robinson: um I covered so much I could talk forever I just really appreciate the opportunity to share I thought the dash.

629
01:17:53.910 --> 01:18:03.990
Deborah Robinson: program was fabulous and it really inspired me and in it and it just made me start thinking you know what were the things that i've done.

630
01:18:04.470 --> 01:18:22.020
Deborah Robinson: With the cast that's now DAS and and really just wanting to be a part again like you said of the of the family um so yeah I just wish you the best and we can keep in touch and I could figure out a way some things I definitely have copies.

631
01:18:22.110 --> 01:18:24.420
Deborah Robinson: Of and I could just say you guys.

632
01:18:24.480 --> 01:18:25.050
Right.

633
01:18:27.360 --> 01:18:34.440
Deborah Robinson: But it's been it's been very helpful to me to prepare for this and just even remember.

634
01:18:35.940 --> 01:18:44.160
Deborah Robinson: You know what I did to kind of reconstruct that again so that was very helpful and I just speaking with Dr Walter Allen.

635
01:18:45.420 --> 01:18:48.240
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: No, no, I don't think so.

636
01:18:48.450 --> 01:18:49.110
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: I don't think so, but.

637
01:18:49.500 --> 01:18:50.850
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: We should we should right.

638
01:18:51.120 --> 01:18:57.090
Deborah Robinson: Definitely should because he was involved in so many he was involved with the bunnymen Zimbabwe projects.

639
01:18:57.090 --> 01:18:58.650
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: And Bob where project rice.

640
01:18:58.830 --> 01:19:00.270
Deborah Robinson: was involved with cass.

641
01:19:00.390 --> 01:19:03.420
Deborah Robinson: um and Tom holds and.

642
01:19:03.510 --> 01:19:07.170
Deborah Robinson: mm hmm because I know Walter and Tom.

643
01:19:07.800 --> 01:19:08.790
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: Do you by chance yeah.

644
01:19:11.070 --> 01:19:16.440
Deborah Robinson: I can, I can find their contact they both went to the Barbados, a study abroad.

645
01:19:17.490 --> 01:19:17.820
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: hey.

646
01:19:18.870 --> 01:19:19.500
Deborah Robinson: and

647
01:19:21.810 --> 01:19:26.610
Deborah Robinson: Robert Allen I don't but have you heard that name.

648
01:19:29.070 --> 01:19:31.020
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Sir oh boy.

649
01:19:32.700 --> 01:19:34.860
Deborah Robinson: First, all this was happening you guys.

650
01:19:35.880 --> 01:19:36.720
Deborah Robinson: Like five.

651
01:19:38.910 --> 01:19:47.220
Deborah Robinson: But he would be really important, because I think he went over as a part of this janine.

652
01:19:48.030 --> 01:19:48.750
um.

653
01:19:50.520 --> 01:19:51.150
Deborah Robinson: connection.

654
01:19:52.800 --> 01:19:54.030
Deborah Robinson: So um.

655
01:19:56.400 --> 01:19:56.910
Deborah Robinson: yeah.

656
01:19:58.170 --> 01:19:58.590
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Great.

657
01:20:00.390 --> 01:20:04.350
Dolapo Raheemat Raji: lesson for us as well, very, very educated, I must say.

658
01:20:06.270 --> 01:20:08.700
Tara Mondesi Weinberg: Thank you i'll stop the recording now.