18:08:36 And thank you all so much for doing it. Yeah.
18:08:40 Cool.
18:08:41 Thanks for thinking of us. Yeah. Oh, for sure.
18:08:45 So way we go.
18:08:58 Okay so this evening. We're happy to have with us to have our esteemed alumni who were cast undergraduate majors.
18:09:09 Jimmy Talley accident and Andre Brown, Jr.
18:09:17 They both were part of our das history and we're happy to have them here tonight to discuss with us about their experiences as das undergrads and also their experiences with study abroad.
18:09:32 So I'd like to turn this over to Ashley Marie Hayes will be doing the initial conducting the interview.
18:09:41 Thank you so much thank you both for being here this evening. My first question for you is, as to people who came from predominantly black cities, why did you choose your event
18:09:57 roomie I can jump in on this one first and I have to some of my favorite people are from Flint, I miss you.
18:10:07 But I am from Detroit, and. Okay, I have to expose myself.
18:10:13 I actually wanted to go to Howard University and my mother was like, Nope, private institution, who's paying for that.
18:10:21 I don't even have the money to get you back and forth for the holidays like she was very practical. And so I had to reconsider my options and when I thought about other institutions, there was really none other that could match what the University of
18:10:35 Michigan had to offer particularly for an in state institution and so I had advocates at my high school who thought it would be a great opportunity for me and you know we're really pushing me towards applying and growing up in Detroit like every year
18:10:53 you're visiting the University of Michigan, with your school is just what is done with Detroit Public Schools. So over the years I had also been able to visit campus, meet students and learn more about the organization.
18:11:08 And so, or the institution rather. So I think all of those things, you know, high school teachers and counselors advocated for me thinking it would be a good opportunity, and visiting myself all over the years just learning more about it.
18:11:24 I think that was what helped me get to Michigan.
18:11:30 I think for me, so I'm, I'm from Flint. And I think my coming to Michigan was sort of happenstance, and a lot of ways so I also wanted to go to Howard, as well.
18:11:44 And I also was looking at a few other schools out of state but as a first generation student or soon to be first generation student at that time, I really didn't have much guidance or direction on like what schools are good and which ones I should apply
18:11:58 to, and I just was kind of applying to schools and. And so, I've gotten into Michigan State. And then I also had applied to, and gotten into Michigan.
18:12:10 I also similar to Jay had been to campus, quite a bit I was in the king Chavez parks program when I was in middle school there so I came to Michigan for the first time in the eighth grade and then I also is a part of the Model UN program when I was in
18:12:26 high school until we had a modeling competition. I think that was my 10th grade year at Michigan. And so, you know, again I apply it I knew I was going to college.
18:12:37 As a high schooler but I didn't really know well know where and what really sold me to be quite honest, is that I just thought Michigan's campus was beautiful.
18:12:46 I remember being in the law squad, and just kind of walking around and seeing everything and just, it was so different than what I was used to growing up 45 minutes away and Flynn, and it just was sort of a decision that I made, I didn't know how, you
18:13:02 know, good Michigan was as a school, my counselor, the automation
18:13:15 tool is like four years honor to me was the one Previous to that so that was just kind of how it happened and it was a really great decision that I didn't know I was making at the time.
18:13:32 I'll be your stories are quite relatable. For me, from Southfield.
18:13:34 So I appreciate your perspectives and sharing those very encouraging to know I'm not the only one that just apply cuz I heard a Michigan, or was told about Michigan's campus because my school took me every year so thanks for sharing your responses.
18:13:46 When did you both arrive at U of M as a student. And what did you study.
18:13:53 Um, so I came the fall of 2001 so August something. It was a Wednesday I remember that.
18:14:01 Go help me move down with with my family and I came right before classes started and think at the time they were having freshmen move in about a week before classes started.
18:14:13 And so I'm moved in. I lived in North Campus I lived in Berkeley. I was there for three years I lived on campus at the time again I didn't know much about where to live and people were like you live on our campus.
18:14:26 And I wasn't an engineer, I wasn't a music major it wasn't, you know, the folks who tend to live on our campus. But it was actually sort of a vibrant black campus or community on North Campus as well.
18:14:41 And so when I originally came to Michigan, I was going to be. Sports and Entertainment attorney. That was my goal, my whole life I wanted to be a lawyer.
18:14:52 Everyone's like, Oh, you like to argue, it should be.
18:14:57 And so I was planning to be a psychology major because they didn't. There was no like pre law, major. I was planning to major in psych, and then eventually as I decided that I wanted to be a sports and entertainment attorney.
18:15:11 I transfer my sophomore year from LS and a into the school of Kinesiology to be a sports management major. And then during right after that I did my study abroad and I'll talk, I guess a little bit more about that later and and study abroad section, but
18:15:28 sort of born in South Africa really change my professional trajectory. And I decided to go into public health, but because I was already so far along I was not going to change my major and stay in school any longer than I had to.
18:15:43 And so I ended up staying a sports management major, minor and in cast, you know, to sort of stay in Ellison a. And that's sort of my turn, transition from site to.
18:15:57 Nice to public health essentially.
18:16:02 And I also came to Michigan and fall of 2001, and what a blessing. Andre was one of the first people I met on campus, one of the first friends I made, we were walking to what was.
18:16:17 I don't know what the trailer house on Washington is now but we were walking to then what we know as the trailer house is Greek life now is the office agree.
18:16:26 Drink life now is the office. Yeah. Interesting. Okay, well, we were going for a black welcome wake up and I think like a comedy show and so we met each other, walking, yeah.
18:16:39 T shirt, I'm president.
18:16:45 That was little fun to be
18:16:50 friends with this man for 20 years.
18:16:59 Yeah, I saw I came the fall 2001 and I went to a high school in Detroit that I feel like people be like, oh it's selective whatever obviously since I've left it's not as great of course because I'm not there.
18:17:10 But I do think that there was a little bit of like kind of nose up, you have to pick these majors and future careers that sound awesome and so I also was like, Oh, I'm going to be pre law.
18:17:24 I didn't even know fully what that meant. like I thought there was a pre law major, and you did it and then you went to law school like I didn't understand.
18:17:33 You know what it meant to be pre law but that was certainly what I was telling everyone. And so then I got to campus.
18:17:40 And at some point I honestly don't remember where things shifted. I developed some interest in architecture.
18:17:48 As I was like, Okay, I'm going to pursue architecture. Whoo. That was fun. So freshman year, the first semester I took calculus and physics together, and in my mind I'm like I'm smart, I took our classes together in high school, this is going to be nothing
18:18:05 kicked my butt.
18:18:07 But those were prerequisites to get into the architecture school and so I was like, okay, it was a rough semester I just needed to transition. I then took an intro to architecture course second semester.
18:18:21 It was a flaming hotness that was not my ministry quickly realized that, but all the while, every semester I was taking a cast course. So the first semester I took a history of art class was my favorite class that semester, and I don't remember what I
18:18:37 took the second semester but I just always knew I wanted to take a CAS class every semester, and every year of doing that I slowly began to realize like these are the classes I'm most interested in most passionate about most committed to.
18:18:51 I really want to see, you know, what would come of me doing this as my major. So that was more so just really it was, I felt like I belonged. I was very interested in the classes and so it just kind of happened for me that I ended up being a cast major.
18:19:11 Thank you both for sharing those exhilarating stories of, coming, coming in for the first time as a student.
18:19:18 Can you describe your earliest experiences with the Event Center for Afro American and African Studies as a student.
18:19:29 You're muted, you're muted.
18:19:31 Sorry about that. I think at the time when we were freshmen, you know, cast had a really good relationship with the Black Student Union and the issue was sort of my liaison or introduction to cast.
18:19:45 So oftentimes to be a shoe did a lot of programming with cast so we broke co programs together. And then also, you know, Beth was very instrumental in terms of being sort of a unofficial advisor to be a shoe so you know in terms of, you know, guiding
18:20:03 us telling us what happened in the 70s, and how it's the same as it is you know at our, you know 30 years later on and sort of given us that wisdom, and then also we had a lot of our programs or events in the cast center so in the library or in the comments
18:20:21 space I can't remember what it was called, but at the time we were in Haven, or no not haven West West Hall.
18:20:48 Arch to little engineering arch as you're coming out of the diag right there so you know real cozy, that's the way I'm going to put it was real cold.
18:20:41 But it was also the like it was just homey i think is added to just kind of the comfort, the family and familiarity, that you were able to build there and so we were there, and I think at the end of my freshman year was when cast was moving from West
18:20:59 Hall to haven hall where you all are now, and people were actually really upset about moving out of their life harder than fish brief.
18:21:11 Because it was like you know it was, again it just kind of added to that like African diasporic field, it's just like rich wood and, you know, and then we're moving over to dislike monitor, at the time, office looking building I'm like this not cast this
18:21:28 not cast this is and so people were really upset about that at the time, but again it was because we love cast it was our home and it was a safe space for us to continue to be that when we moved to Haven, but certainly from the time that I got to campus
18:21:43 and started getting involved with the black community cast was a very instrumental part of that experience.
18:21:51 Yeah, I mean, literally did what he said, I, my first memories are of West Hall and of the murals that Professor lack art at paint it and just the feeling you got when you were there both because of the environment and the people and I remember, you know,
18:22:09 and again. Similarly, I was very involved with the Black Student Union from early on I just immediately hit me like wow this is a very different experience coming from essentially all black High School and being here, something in me immediately said
18:22:22 I need to find my people in my space. And so for me that was through the Black Student Union. And so again, so many programs and partnerships with cast brought me to that space and you just want your there you just fall in love with it you know even if
18:22:38 if you're just hanging out or we're having meetings, you know, we were always there. And so I remember, I just can vividly see like the murals and the artwork and I was one of those people who was really upset about the move and I feel like even with,
18:22:52 you know, Trotter like we.
18:22:55 I certainly did not enjoy that walk to Trotter every Thursday night for Black Student Union meetings.
18:23:05 Listen, you, you, you find out the real members in the wintertime. Okay.
18:23:21 I you know I think that's just how black people are we find a way to make something magical and beautiful out of everything and I think people were trying to sell us on oh you know, West Hall is off the beaten path is kind of further out you're moving
18:23:30 ahead and hall where all the other departments are your kind of centralized in your location, to me, you know, trying to argue that it was more accessible in certain ways where I was fine with kind of being off to ourselves and doing our own thing and
18:23:45 really owning the space.
18:23:47 So yeah, I can, I digress. But yeah, I would say, I think, you know, in sort of looking now as a real adult, you know, back on the experience. I think it really was that that was a safe space for us.
18:24:04 and I, you know, when we were in West Hall like you really were removed from everyone the rest of the university and it really was just kind of this whole other world where it was just black, black professors, like imagery on the wall back black literature
18:24:20 available in the libraries and things like that. And I think, again, to have that be exposed because that's essentially what happened when we went to, to, to haven hon.
18:24:33 Now we're around everyone on this sort of the comfort of being insulated from the rest of the university was not there at least in the physical form and I think that that did make a difference.
18:24:45 Definitely.
18:24:46 Thank you for that insight into the kind of segue to our next question, which is what is the importance of an Africana Studies Program at a predominantly white University for undergraduate students.
18:25:01 So I will say that I have so many responses to this but I'll keep it to a couple and one is that for me.
18:25:09 I feel like I really strengthened my sense of self and confidence in who I am and my identity at CAST I think that I kind of took for granted that growing up in Detroit.
18:25:21 Going to all black schools, it was just me you didn't really talk about it because it just what we were fish in the water like you don't talk about the water because you're there and so then getting to the U of M.
18:25:31 And, you know, being there during the time of their formative action cases and I'm being the only black person in your class and then it's like, Okay, well, this is certainly something to think about.
18:25:42 So, for me, it was really about learning about who I am learning about my people about the culture, and just really feeling strong and positive about that.
18:25:54 It was also one of the first times where the narrative of our people did not start with slavery like it was kind of revolutionary to me like you know the trashy history that you get taught in public schools is like black people rise out from slavery and
18:26:10 here we are, it's like no like we are a whole people, way before all of that effort, you know, so like just learning from professors who looked like me.
18:26:23 Sometimes, and then also learning, like using literature and reading books from authors who look like me reclaiming that story, and not having someone else tell it for you or to you and just, you know, expecting you to accept it and keep it moving.
18:26:39 I think it was that ownership piece to that I feel like is why it's so essential to have Africana studies programs that universities, and when I hear that.
18:26:50 I'm not saying it out of shock but just kind of discussed that we still have stories coming out of, you know, states in the middle of this country who are either not teaching certain aspects of history or are revision, you know is revisionist history
18:27:05 and they're making things up or, you know, we, we're not going to celebrate Black History Month all of these things that come out just reinforces why we need these types of programs.
18:27:18 And I think similar to what Jay said, I think, you know, for me, having an African Studies program.
18:27:25 One provides context, I think it helps you helped me to understand my experiences as a black person who grew up really poor in Flint and understanding the social structures that exists.
18:27:41 A that possible. And I think that, you know, it was not something that I was able to sort of conceive of. I remember when I came in as a freshman.
18:27:54 And we were having a conversation to be as soon as about affirmative action. And one of the comments that I made at the time was that I thought that affirmative action was a handout to black people, non like, you know, pushing 40 year old Andre now is
18:28:07 like super appalled that something like that ever came out of my mouth. But again, when you have when you grow up in an environment where you're told that if you're not successful this year thought it's a person.
18:28:20 It's your fault. It's a person. Personal failure, or it's a familial one you know something that's limited to your family unit.
18:28:27 You buy into those things when you don't have any sort of counter narrative to that and being able to learn and all of the different cast classes, whether it was a history class or a literature class or an environmental class for example, all of those
18:28:41 things helped me to understand the black condition, and why black people are where they are at that moment in time and where we continue to be. And so it really helped me to just understand not only just blackness.
18:28:56 And it's full complexity and not just kind of like could black, you know from Flint that I that I learned, but you know Daya spork blackness.
18:29:05 By skin blackness. You know, you know boozy rich blackness and sort of all those things are possible, because I had this opportunity.
18:29:15 I think the other thing for me that cast, what it did for a lot of people is that it helped us to know that we belong at you know our history, our academics, all the things that we learned in our classes are important from the black perspective as well.
18:29:34 And we've contributed to this country just as much, maybe even more than other people. And I think it's sometimes hard to see that especially when you're in this and, you know, you know, competitive University as Jay said you might be the only black person
18:29:51 up in your class or one of a few and other black person might not like other black people so so you know and so it really is a struggle. And you can feel like that you don't belong, that you know you're not supposed to be here.
18:30:06 And those are things that continue to be, you know, challenging and so when you have this entire body of work of an academic unit that essentially tells you that you belong, that you're important that you want to do your career aspirations are, you know,
18:30:25 are doable.
18:30:27 All of those things really helped to, you know, sure of your confidence. As a student, but it also helps to give you guidance in terms of where you're going, you know, for your for your life and career.
18:30:41 Thank you both so very much and for pass it off to Tara I'd like to ask before we get too far into, into the study abroad question is What drew you both to das and to your respective study abroad experiences and if you feel you've touched on coming to
18:30:57 das already, you don't have to reiterate that but what drew you to your experiences that you've had, and then we'll get more into study abroad with her.
18:31:10 So I think I think I may have covered that it's so weird to call it that I know like it's just I'm like a status members in our next
18:31:21 the move was a debate and cast the bass was a debate.
18:31:28 I mean, again, I'll just say it was home for a lot of different reasons and so that was the reason that draw me drew me into staying with cats you know until I graduated and now years later still coming back.
18:31:42 As regards to study abroad program so I don't know if Asian Black and Brown is still a thing because it's still the thing.
18:31:49 So my freshman year, there was a program called Asian Black and Brown was designed to raise raise HIV awareness among black and Latino students on campus and at the time, towards the end of my freshman year, the two women who were running the program
18:32:07 who were like the chairs were graduating seniors and so we needed somebody to take it over because it needed to happen again, or what have you. And so, you know, being young and excitable and wanting to do something and just too much time on my hands,
18:32:25 dancer who was the Speaker of the be a shoe at the time as I oh you should do this, then basically told me to do it. So I'm like, Okay, I'll do it. And so, that meant meeting with best pretty regularly I think we met every week.
18:32:41 You know from that time on, sometimes early in the morning. That's how you know i i love the work because I was getting up coming from North Campus mean that like eight seven in the morning, I was gonna say you were so regular he meant yeah but it was
18:33:06 it at
18:33:00 the age of black and brown program and allow me to interface with a lot of other students student organizations and then also faculty who were doing HIV prevention work and one of them was Nisha Nisha.
18:33:12 And so once I heard about the study abroad program like I was excited on that I want to do this because it was in line with. It was a you know an HIV prevention focused study abroad program.
18:33:23 So I was excited about that. Don't ever tell Nisha, but I really wanted to go to South Africa, really, really bad and so that was a huge motivation for me.
18:33:34 I can go to South Africa.
18:33:37 And so I was really excited about that opportunity as well. And then Nisha actually didn't want me to go because she told me I was still young, I was a sophomore.
18:33:48 And most people who went were right I guess rising juniors is that the correct term. Anyways, they're in their junior year, and sounds like a year too young and she's like all you need the way, and I'm like, No, I'm ready now like I'm running this whole
18:34:02 week of programs like I had all this like social justice and, you know, Black History knowledge or what have you, so I basically was able to talk her into letting me go on vouch for you.
18:34:16 Always looking at Let me tell you.
18:34:19 And so, in just in doing still doing the black and brown work which I continue to chair the committee until I graduated was really an opportunity for me and is why it drew me in because it was an opportunity to do the kind of work that I was doing in
18:34:36 another country and to learn a lot more, I mean it was such a, an amazing experience. But that's how I got into the study abroad program.
18:34:49 Yeah, so I think for me it was a couple things.
18:34:52 The first was that when you. I always tell people, and it's funny because when I tell people I go to Michigan they're like, you know such and such because it's just the thing that like all the black people knew each other, you know like, so there's a
18:35:04 family that comes out of you being black at Michigan and I watched Andre and other friends you know upperclassmen who I was close with go and do study abroad.
18:35:16 Kristen Harris was actually the person who really convinced me to pursue the study abroad that I did, because Dr Kristen Harris one in will let me put some respect on that name.
18:35:25 So I just learning about their experiences and seeing their excitement and how powerful. Their stories were got me interested. I also think that being in the Black Student Union and all of us really trying to focus on.
18:35:43 You know what does it mean to embrace the diaspora, wanting to broaden my perspective and I absolutely was
18:35:54 one of those people who had the complete wrong perception of what it meant to visit the country of Africa and I'm doing some scare quotes here because that happens all the time right it's just this you know one experience that people claim to have and
18:36:09 it's often negative and horrible. And I remember actually the first time that I brought it up to my parents. Mind you, I'm in college so you know you think you're grown and my mother flat out was like, No, she was like it's not safe.
18:36:21 It's dangerous. you gotta die You can't go she shut it down. And so I, you know, kind of, like, very scared because, you know, my black mom is like, I'm going to listen, but I'm going next year, and that's how it happened that, I think, I think I was
18:36:37 a junior. When I apply to go to Ghana with Professor Shaffer's, and it was such a powerful experience, which is also something that I guess I'll share more in the following questions just you know what's so great about das and the study abroad is just
18:36:54 how you know the cross departmental relationships and how you get to experience a lot of different things so I actually was the only student and go with a group of urban planning students so it was a really great experience but yeah just that interest
18:37:13 the diaspora and also seeing my other friends do study abroad is what brought me to it. Yeah, and I was just gonna say today is so funny because I know that you say that I just think back to how hesitant my parents were about letting me go, It was right
18:37:24 you know I was like post September 11 and so, things were still kind of crazy and I think there was like some other planes or bombings or something that had happened on the continent as well right before I left.
18:37:54 And so it was a lot of sort of international turmoil in the midst of sort of going on this trip and so it did take some resolve because I know my parents were like, are you sure, and you want to
18:37:52 know. I'm going to go.
18:38:04 Cool. Thanks so much, so I'll continue with the study abroad questions. And also just to say, Jay when you were talking about sort of why deaths was or cast was important to you and where it needed to exist.
18:38:18 It reminded me of I've just been looking through some interview footage from a panel from 1980, where, which featured the students who were involved and bam, bam one.
18:38:30 The student activism that led to the formation of cats, and I just came across a clip with run, I think his name was Ron Harris, who was a member of them.
18:38:41 And he said, one of the driving factors was that he went to the head of the history department he said we need to do more black history and the history department head said but what is the except slaves in America.
18:38:55 And he said, Well, black history is about so much more than slaves in America.
18:39:00 And so, yeah, it's interesting that generations of students, you know, have been fighting for that.
18:39:06 For to carve out that space.
18:39:09 Absolutely. And I think also just like we're more than Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and, you know, and no no shade, or sites in them because there certainly are worthy of you know all the accolades that they get in the history books, but we're again
18:39:23 we're so rich and there's so I mean like black people are just dope all over the world. And we're resilient and and you would not know that, and especially again I think coming from a very economically depressed, black city that you know that I come from,
18:39:40 you would just never know all the amazing things that black people have accomplished because the narrative is always poverty, violence, you know, broken families and so to be able to just know that there's all of this wonder out there that we've accomplished
18:39:59 was just such a bit it's, it's indescribable how enriching it is and to say that it's life changing was was not is not an overstatement or not an exaggeration at all it really did change my life.
18:40:12 Absolutely.
18:40:16 So, so to kind of those points, I'm interested to hear more about your experiences with study abroad, specifically because I know like, that's when people talk about study abroad a das, it was different from how study abroad was run and other programs
18:40:29 and I'm interested to hear more about your experiences.
18:40:34 And I know you began to touch on them but maybe tell us more.
18:40:38 Sure, I can start and I. So as an undergrad, I went to Ghana with Professor shapers and then as a grad student, I went to South Africa with Professor Laurie heel.
18:40:51 And, you know, a huge part of the experience was shaped and is treasured to me because of the leaders of the trips, and I just felt so fortunate to be able to have that amount of time with those professors and again I was still I was the death metal but
18:41:24 was still taking other prerequisites and for the most part, you know I didn't always have professors who looked like me so add value that that was so powerful and important to me So number one, just the experience of being able to have these very in depth,
18:41:30 you know you got the country with folks for three and four weeks and it gets real close and personal. So just being able to have those experiences and and really for Professor shapers every interaction with him is literally like a let me sit at your feet
18:41:39 and learn every single thing he says to me is like a learning moment and I just cherish it so to know that you know these great minds of our time, or like leading these groups, it was really powerful.
18:41:52 The other thing was again like I kind of mentioned, the experiences stand out for me because so much of what I knew about the continent, was fed to me by media by people who work, I think, ignorant and just didn't know about the beauty the richness and
18:42:10 the complexities diversity of everything that was happening there. And so to be able to go and experience it for myself was certainly very powerful and life changing.
18:42:23 So I'll stop there and see, pass it over there rooming.
18:42:30 Yeah, so I just want to make sure I'm answering the just what was my general experience or what did i love about it I want to make sure I'm answering.
18:42:41 I'm sorry I can't hear you
18:42:48 I didn't hear you know I still can't hear you.
18:42:54 I know she did say general experience while she's trying to work through her sound. Okay. Okay.
18:43:01 I'll talk about that. So I think one of the really great thing that I didn't love at the time that I was going through, but I think that was really helpful so we had class, the semester leading up to the study abroad.
18:43:13 So I think we had class like once or twice a week or something. We had to read books and articles and things like melt Nelson Mandela's Long Walk to Freedom was one of the pieces that we had to read.
18:43:27 And so what it really did those classes beforehand and we continue to have classes during the study abroad so you know couple of times or in the evening a week, we will have class wherever we were staying.
18:43:38 And it really helped to contextualize the country and the people. And so as they said you know you get the like starving baby with the big belly and the fly flying around him on TV and everyone lives in a hut, and you know and that's basically kind of
18:43:57 the image of Africa wherever on the continent that you get.
18:44:02 But reading those books reading those stories learning the history understanding the people struggle, really helped to make the country make sense. Before out there, and then we're they're working with people join you know delivering the module that we
18:44:18 were there to teach people about all of those things made a whole lot of sense because we had that sort of prerequisite training about who, who we were going to be dealing with for a lack of a better word, and I think to me that shows such a respect for
18:44:35 the people for a South African people for the South African country, and it's set a tone for what we were there to do like we were there to yes oh yeah to learn yeah to have a great time and all of that and you know and see South Africa.
18:44:52 But we were here to, you know, do some, some serious social justice work. And so, those those sort of pre learning experiences, really helped with that.
18:45:04 And then I just think, you know, for me go again going to stop after even though like I'm from Flint Flint it's a predominantly black city, to just go and get off the plane and see that both for the pilots are black.
18:45:20 You know all the billboards everybody black on them. And like you know it you know folks working from every level from the janitor all the way up to executives wherever we're at, we're black people was something that I just was not used to seeing, and
18:45:35 it was such a like again moment of wonder like, Oh my god, and I think that, you know, when I stepped off the plane in Johannesburg. I just felt at home, like I felt peace.
18:45:49 I felt calm.
18:45:51 It just felt no you know I felt connected. And so I think that, you know, it really helped to set the tone for what that experience was going to be like, I think the other thing that we are heard as black Americans was IO black Africans don't like y'all
18:46:08 and all these sort of negative things about us and some of them are there's some elements of truth, because I've certainly experienced some sort of negative interactions with at, you know, African Americans are first generations, but what it just was
18:46:25 the truth. People were warm people were welcoming people were excited to see you. People are amazed that you're an American and a black American at that.
18:46:35 I know one of the things that especially the kids are thought that we knew, like all the celebrities.
18:46:41 Sorry.
18:46:43 50 cent. He's trash but whatever at the time, was he was pretty new and popular in terms of American music. And so all of the kids wanted to know if we knew 50 cent or, you know, how we were black but we didn't speak Zulu for example.
18:47:03 And so just all these, you know experiences that you know first because we were able to have those folks humanized and our eyes, I think, opened us up to, you know, be have is full of experience during our study abroad.
18:47:32 How about now. Yes. Yay.
18:47:35 Okay. It has never had that problem with my audio before. Yes, there's a fish zone you must be
18:47:46 like y'all I'll be back because
18:48:05 I'm tired of Zoom Zoom tired of me this
18:47:59 really interesting to hear your reflections essentially Andrew in South Africa, coming from there myself from Cape Town, but I know what you mean about Joburg as well job good job in the cities have a different field.
18:48:12 Yeah.
18:48:12 Yeah.
18:48:13 So, and I wondered if you could talk about it a little bit more about some of the specific projects or events in both of your study abroad, that jump out at you, as particularly kind of memorable experiences.
18:48:30 Or I can go first. Um, so I think the the most poignant moment for me and there were a lot of just, again, amazing. Interesting.
18:48:42 So shaking moments, but I think the one that really sticks out for me is that so we in our study abroad, we started in Johannesburg we were there for about four or five days, we went to Durban we were in Durban for about three three and a half weeks and
18:48:57 then we spent like the last week of our time in Cape Town so the most of the majority of our time was spent in Durban and kind of the townships around Durban and so our job, what we were there to do.
18:49:10 Nisha had developed this module down that talks about how HIV is spread how to prevent HIV. So it was essentially sort of a, an oral HIV prevention module that we were delivering and then having teach back to happen to us.
18:49:27 But one of the other experiences that we had was that we had an opportunity to go to this place called McCord hospital. And so it was in Durban in the city of Durban, and it's served, mostly mothers were at least what we saw at the time when we were there
18:49:48 were mothers and then babies and children who were living with HIV so pediatric cases as well.
18:49:56 And so we had an opportunity they were having a support group, just so happened the day that we were there, and we were invited to sit in on the support group.
18:50:06 And so it was so again like by this time I've been doing a black and brown for like a year and a half, you know, talking about use condoms and safer sex and, you know, fighting HIV stigma and, you know, all of these things that I, you know, we've been
18:50:22 talking about. But being in that support group so we were able to kind of just sit around the perimeter they were sitting in a circle in this room so pretty huge room and they're probably I would say about 30 people who were part of this support group
18:50:37 so as moms with their babies and things like that. And so we kind of came in, it's you know it's warm.
18:50:44 It's stuffy in the room or what have you.
18:50:48 But this was the first time that I could say that I have seen people in person, who were sick, living with HIV.
18:50:58 And so before it was just talking about you know healthy folks you know they're taking their meds and things like that and certain this very kind of privilege, American context, but then to be in this room and to be like, literally like a foot or so maybe
18:51:13 away from folks who were visibly ill babies. Patel were in distress, because of their illness or what have you. I felt so uncomfortable, like, I can't even express to you how uncomfortable I felt in that moment, I, you know, all those sort of the ideas
18:51:34 around the stigma and like oh let me recoil away from people like all of that welled up in me and then there's again and there's like the baby's crying and people are talking, and it's hot, and there's I mean there's like a sensory overload is going on.
18:51:51 And so very quickly honestly like I was saying probably like two minutes.
18:51:55 I had to work through all of that, and I had to be like this. This is the work right like that kind of privilege flowery, kind of like you see those drug commercials on TV and they're all running around happy and stuff and but tell you about all these
18:52:12 daily things that are going to happen like that's kind of how I felt I was like No, this is really serious. This is what the word can look like this is what the extreme of the work looks like.
18:52:28 And I can't very well, you know, sit on my soapbox and talk to people about stigma and all of that, and then be in this space where I'm really put to the test and fail, and that's what I feel like felt like that I was going to do.
18:52:39 If I wasn't able to quickly work through my own stuff to be in the moment to experience, HIV in all of its capacity and all the ways in which it happens.
18:52:52 And so that was just something that I had to do.
18:52:55 And I'm so glad that I did it. I'm so glad that I didn't just kind of like panic and like run out the room or, you know, something like that but it really, you know, like I said there were a lot of things that I remember about that trip, but I can just
18:53:09 still feel myself in a room and hear all of the things.
18:53:14 And that was such a powerful moment for me, because I think it helped me to gain a greater level of compassion that I needed to really be effective at doing HIV prevention work.
18:53:28 The other one I'm thinking of with you, Andre is also when we read Robben Island.
18:53:34 And we both got kind of overwhelmed. Yeah, that was a moment as well. Yeah, definitely. I think, I think it was, I think for me, one of the challenges that I have.
18:53:51 I don't want to say it's a general it's a challenge overall because I think it's served me well i'm very curious as a person. And so I like to know why stuff happens, it's just, and sometimes to a fault.
18:54:06 Like asked about my, you know, past relationships and why they ended right.
18:54:11 But I think one of the things for me always is that related to that is around racism and I just never get why black people are treated so terribly. And it just, it makes no sense.
18:54:26 It's not warranted for any reason. And one of the things about the Robben Island trip was that when we went into the sort of Bunker area where, you know, the inmates were housed and things like that.
18:54:39 They have on the wall, this big like metal board, and it shows like basically that they fed the white people, more than the color people, more than the black people so it's like a whole cascade like the white people got three pieces of bread.
18:54:56 You know somebody's got to and then the black people crumbs. And it was.
18:55:03 I just, just couldn't wrap my mind around how people had gotten so depraved to think that that was the way in which you should treat another human being.
18:55:15 And I just I never, you know it's I couldn't get over that and so the emotions of it are where we're very strong, and I think it just again brought back so many things of just my own experiences at home, thinking about black American history, thinking
18:55:31 about dice spork history, and I think it just really continues to be something that I struggle with is like, why we are treated the way that we are and that was such a hard thing for me to be able and then such a again a very stark visualization of it.
18:55:52 Definitely.
18:55:55 Yeah.
18:55:58 I will say, I'll probably talk more about when I went to South Africa and I was a grad student at the time. And that was just such a great experience and I failed to mention So number one, I second everything, Andre said about just the intentionality
18:56:14 that das has around preparing students before they go. And so our course was, I think it was caught from Detroit to Durban so there was this kind of deep dive into Detroit and the culture there and even growing up in Detroit, I went to places that I either
18:56:31 I had heard about the never been to or just hadn't even heard about and so being able to learn more about Detroit history was very powerful and kind of juxtaposing it to our experience in South Africa broadly.
18:56:43 And so when we went.
18:56:45 I think ours was was shorter than Andre so we were there I think maybe like, you know, three and a half weeks something like that so we spent about a week in each city in Cape Town and Johannesburg, and in Durban, and in every place we went we always
18:57:01 visited elementary schools are primary schools, and my background is in youth development and at the time you know the time that we went I was planning for like a summer program for my middle school and high school students so education has always been
18:57:20 interesting and important to me, and I was see you know they intentionally planned for us to visit a school with black children to school with colored children in the school for white African children and just to see the differences in resources, and
18:57:41 in everything really.
18:57:43 It was so hard and obviously you know the passion was there, regardless of if the resources weren't there you know you could feel the love you could feel the ingenuity, you could feel the creativeness to like make a way out of no way in those spaces.
18:57:57 You could, you could just feel that positive energy but it was so frustrating to see why and you know you knew it was because of color.
18:58:06 The differences that children were experiencing. And so, it also blew my mind that I feel like that's the same thing that happens in American particularly that happens in Detroit, so that was a lot of what I focused on it you know we all had to decide
18:58:19 on the topic that we were going to write on we didn't have a project per se, while we were there it was really about just going around and experiencing, you know, having class and experiencing all of these different institutions and organizations.
18:58:33 And when we got back, deciding on a topic to write on it so I focused a lot on the youth development piece and how important it is to have that positive sense of self honestly what I feel like I gained as a cast baby is you know we can't build up our
18:58:51 young people.
18:58:52 If you know they are starting in these places where it is so obvious that people think they're less than, or that they're not worthy. And so how do we build that in them, even when the universe or not the universe but when you know society says otherwise
18:59:07 so that was a lot of what my paper focused on. And still, obviously you know something I'm really interested in is how do we strengthen young black people to say regardless of what society says you are worthy You are beautiful you are all of the great
18:59:22 things, you know, in spite of.
18:59:27 That's so true today I was thinking of the same thing, because being a librarian in Detroit, working with youth versus being a youth librarian in Ann Arbor.
18:59:39 I could see the same dichotomies I saw in South Africa, and it just dawned on me because we're supposed to be living in this new country that is supposed.
19:00:02 The evolved from moving away from what you know is supposed to be something different. And yet, Seeing the exact same thing, the parallel universe staring us right in the face.
19:00:07 It was very, it's still very difficult for me to recognize.
19:00:12 And I think the same is true for HIV and risk, and why you know HIV is so out of control in black communities here, as well as in South Africa as well and so you look at racism and poverty and sort of all of these what you know now I know is, you know,
19:00:33 an affiliate of the cost social determinants of health.
19:00:36 But at that time we didn't really have the language for it but it's just basically your experience where you live and where you work and where you go to school, and all of these things sort of form this constellation of risk because those places and institutions
19:00:51 have been systemically, you know, broken down and handicapped. And a lot of ways and so I think the same thing you're, you're saying that you saw parallels in the educational system also see in healthcare and HIV prevention world as well as the same thing
19:01:15 in a different place. Yeah, yeah,
19:01:17 yeah. So my last question around study abroad, is to ask how those programs in deaths impacted your career trajectory and your life since, and so you could answer that now or we can bundle that into a question that Beth is going to ask as well about more
19:01:35 generally how does this shaped your life experiences after university Shall we do that, Beth. I don't want to take up too much of the, of the time, with all the specific questions.
19:01:49 Yummy. That's perfect.
19:01:54 You since you've asked it, then I will just bundle that into the question itself.
19:01:58 So, I will say, my study abroad experience and just my training in CAS are a direct influence on my career choices. As I said earlier, I was going to be a lawyer, that was my plan I was going to law school afterwards, I had actually never heard of public
19:02:18 health before until I started with the study abroad program and Leslie Welch, who was one of the color chaperone.
19:02:43 But, a graduate assistant that's probably a better way to put it was a Leslie was a mph a Masters of Public Health student at the time. I knew Leslie from again just doing work around 1000 black and brown and then also just been cast.
19:02:49 And so I was able to learn a lot about what public health was the flexibility in terms of their different trajectories that one can take in public health, and it really helped me to see that all of the things that I've been learning in the Black Student
19:03:02 Union learning in my cast classes around the black experience around institutional structures and how they influence social outcomes. All of them were a direct result of my training.
19:03:17 And so when I came back from the study abroad I decided that I was going to go and get an MPH and so without cast without the study abroad program and being able to interact with all of the people that I did throughout the process, I'd be somebody's lawyer
19:03:34 right now.
19:03:35 You know, so it definitely changed my life and in my career trajectory.
19:03:43 Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, so as a cast major I was always got the question of also, what are you going to do with that major you know there wasn't respect or value placed on, and in my experience, deciding to major in cash or das.
19:04:00 And so, for me, I feel like, you know, it was such a foolish question like what do you mean the same thing that you're going to do with your degree because it's just as worthy and I learned so many practical skills, you know, critical thinking and strengthen
19:04:14 my writing I had some professors. Lay me out like bro, you've got to step it up and type it up so I learned so much you know just practically but I think for me it really helped shape who I am and the work that I'm passionate about that at the heart of
19:04:28 what I do and what I want to do is lean into relationships, connecting with people doing my part to it you know is that interconnectedness that I think I really deepened with my relationships that cast I was not just enough for me to do well but what
19:04:47 can I do, because it's absolutely my responsibility to connect with others and figure out how all of us do better, and those types of beliefs that you know lead my life like Andre said that helped me decide my career path.
19:05:02 That was shaped at Cass and just, you know, being a part of a community that was so nurturing and so safe at a time we're being at the university and being black did not always feel good.
19:05:14 And so it also instilled in me like how do I create these spaces for other people, you know, and just continue that love and continue that care for other people that particularly for people in my community.
19:05:32 Yeah, and I just I would say I everything I've learned has been so useful, because you know, my work is around why black gay men have HIV more than other folks and while we're depressed, more than other folks as well.
19:05:48 And a lot of those things have to do with our experiences as black men in general, and then also on top of that sort of that intersection perspective of being gay or bisexual as well.
19:05:59 But being able again from learning how to understand how social structures are built is sustained.
19:06:06 You know, essentially understanding white supremacy and patriarchy and how they operate in many different ways in our society are all things that I learned in cast that I'm able to translate into now in the public health realm so even though it's a more
19:06:23 general lies training around African and African Studies, the things that I learned about how you know societies are structured and who has access to opportunities, has been something that is clearly guided me, you know through my work because again as
19:06:38 far as management major like I don't do anything.
19:06:43 We know, we know you we were just waiting for you today. You know,
19:06:48 wasn't gonna happen, because no people actually tried to talk me out of it.
19:07:00 Nice. Nice. First of all, backup often nice let me say that, but you know kidneys has a bad reputation is.
19:07:00 Yeah, rigorous and some of the other schools and some people were like well what are you doing over there.
19:07:06 But it made sense for me at the time for what I wanted to do.
19:07:11 But you know cast was always still at the heart of, you know, I academic world, my social work, I work there, you know from sophomore year until I left to go to grad school so I was a little secretary.
19:07:26 And so it really was just an experience and I think an experience within a college experience.
19:07:34 You know, there's often hear these debates about like, you know, HPC us versus pw eyes and what kind of experience that you're going to get but I will say that I just feel like that I have such a nurturing and strong and vibrant black community and black
19:07:50 experience and Michigan. And a lot of that was was due to the the history and the legacy of black people at the University of Michigan, so that was very clear, not only from what we learned, but we also have folks coming back talking to us like yeah I
19:08:06 signed up in our,
19:08:09 you know, and I told this administrator where they can go and how fast to go there. And those things were not only again affirming for us, but they were also training tools for us as well because we have to tell the same administrator.
19:08:25 Look, you're not doing what you need to do is raggedy up in here and I don't know how many times we gotta tell you his raggedy, but though, you know, and then you know just what didn't work.
19:08:36 What didn't we do. So I remember, I guess was that sophomore year January I felt like it had to be sophomore year, we were boycotting the Michigan daily
19:08:49 started missing missing data that comes out every day.
19:08:52 But at the time, there were not a lot of stories about black students and black people. And then when we were in the paper we were offline reports. Yeah, exam, first of all, it was the price point that's where you can find like you know it's gonna be
19:09:07 a 18 and 40 year old man was between five five and six, nine, and 110 310 pounds so that's really where we saw, you know.
19:09:21 And then again, when there were stories about our events or our culture programs and things like that. We were often misquoted.
19:09:29 People were Miss identify. Remember, they one time confuse
19:09:38 john Matlock with
19:09:43 Lester months or something. Yes, yes, with with Lester minds now.
19:09:50 Hey, literally,
19:09:53 but in a very high ranking officials within the university who the student papers should know who they are and should also know better than to miss identify them, but it wasn't the case and so there was a lot of problems that we were having this black
19:10:07 students, so we were like oh let's boycott the daily and it was also the Latino students, the Asian Pacific Islander students as well so pretty much all the students of color.
19:10:18 And so we want to we're boy kinds of paper and initially we wanted to still all of the papers we like let's just go around and I got the papers or whatever.
19:10:29 And so I think Brown had did that as well, and it didn't go so well from them Brown University. Some students there. So it was that kinds of things you know like learning from folks who had sort of been doing the activism work around strategies, how what
19:10:43 to say, How to say, we learn how to call the media on the university because we found out that they don't like bad press, so you like cod cod news conduct Civ.
19:10:56 Right.
19:10:58 But, you know, but that legacy that you know those experiences those strong just bright brilliant amazing talented black people who went on to just do amazing things and that's one of the other things that I just have to give a nod to from my experiences
19:11:17 as a black student at Michigan is that I know so many other just dope black people who are just doing it in, you know, medicine and education and social work in entertainment out in Hollywood.
19:11:32 I mean, any sort of fill in, you know endeavor of the human that you can think of. There are some dope black people that I went to school with not just like you know I'm not even counting like all the black people I'm talking about the four years that
19:11:45 I was there, and that speaks to, you know, the talent that comes to Michigan, but it all, then speaks to the black community and places like cast because we come into university in a very hostile place, the University of Michigan is, you know is diverse
19:12:05 and progressive as it wants to proclaim to be is as nice it is not a safe place for black people. And so you can have lots of black brilliance and have that that diminish and have it beaten and you know worn out of you and a lot of people go home.
19:12:21 So the fact that we have these smart, intelligent brilliant black students who come in who survive and not only survive but thrive and then go out and still do dumb stuff like that says a lot to me about who we are as black folks and Michigan.
19:12:39 And so I always love that I always appreciate that and it makes me so proud to know that I'm just a part of that number of people.
19:12:49 Well, that's perfect.
19:12:52 I, I totally, I can't say enough about how impressed I am by all the two to have done, but also that how you're able to see yourself in this continuum.
19:13:09 What I'd like to close with is a question that actually speaks to that.
19:13:13 Since we have made it through our first 50 years and what was what is chaos. Today is in a world that you would envision.
19:13:27 Where do you see us going. What might be some of the hopes and dreams that you all have for what lies ahead for the department.
19:13:39 I you know I saw this question and I've been thinking about it and the one thing that continues to stand out to me is just a continuation it to me it's like legacy I feel like anyone who comes to casting das, you know, that number one you're standing
19:14:09 the shoulders of the students who came before us and the faculty and staff who advocated for us. I mean because we're talking a lot about the student experience but absolutely black faculty and staff have their own challenges and struggles and yet and
19:14:11 still are supporting us. So knowing that you are coming in and immediately a part of this legacy of folks who are willing to number one be students but also be activists and work for the collective good.
19:14:23 I want that to continue that to know Cass and das to be a part of that is to be a part of a rich legacy and also to continue. And it's funny because I do the work now so it's one of those things where was like yes I'm doing this work but I don't believe
19:14:40 that some magical unicorn is going to come and make everything better and equitable by tomorrow, so I hope that that continues to be that safe space for students where they can come and kind of just get refueled and nourish and obviously play a role in
19:14:58 figuring out how we address, you have them as a system and how we address in equity, but knowing that that is not going to change overnight still being that kind of you know Lighthouse for black students on campus.
19:15:15 And I think for me. In addition to that, I will say two things that I hope for is one that that continues to grow from an interdisciplinary perspective.
19:15:29 And so I think one of the things that I learned about my training as you know in cast at the time was that it's applicable to a variety of different things from economics, to help to hit three to entertainment.
19:15:45 And so, continuing to grow and to help students, but also the largest society understand how the black experience is colored by all of these different facets, but also how the black experience influences, those things and why it's important to understand
19:16:03 blackness and its relationship to whiteness as well in this country as we try to continue to move forward.
19:16:11 And I think the other thing for me so you know I we've also, you know, at our university been doing a lot of diversity, equity and inclusion work in our centers and our departments and our schools at the university, I can tell the people I'm di out at
19:16:27 this point in time.
19:16:32 Because, Is it. It is a lot, um, and what I hope, and so because of that and sort of my resistance to that has sort of grown this thought of what does it mean to just exist as a black person outside of the context of racism.
19:16:55 And so, Toni Morrison she was interviewed on TV, a long time ago. And one of the things that she talked about was that she says that racism is a distraction.
19:17:05 And so she talks about this idea that if someone says that you don't have culture or you're not a smart enough, and you're going to go out there and try to prove to that person that you have culture that you're smart, as you have free, and all of that
19:17:21 work that you're doing to prove to someone who really has no interest in seeing your humanity anyway is then distracting you from doing the work that you were intended to do your God's work if you will.
19:17:33 And so for me, I'm hoping that as we continue to grow and think about African Studies I we can never escape racism and white supremacy and sort of his impact on black people's lives, but I want us to really think about like, what does it mean to just
19:17:51 live our best lives outside of the context of racism and how do we do that and how do we flourish and sort of build intricate, you know, from an intro community standpoint, so that we can do our best work.
19:18:05 Yes, we have to continue on with fighting this fight. But I also know that racism is a white people's problem, and white people have to do their work to dismantle the systems that they've built and then they continue to benefit from.
19:18:20 And I don't want us as a race as black people to continue to spend an inordinate amount of our time trying to solve something, a problem that we didn't create, and so I don't know exactly what that looks like you know from, from a curriculum standpoint,
19:18:40 but for me it really is about finding black joy, defining blackness celebrating blackness, and not doing it under this shroud of whiteness that's omnipresent in everything that we do.
19:18:56 Speak. Speak up.
19:19:06 But you know, I think you're absolutely right Andre and I'm just thinking about some of the things that have expanded since you all have left we've now added your butt to our Swahili classes, you know, we're thinking and trying to think of ways of expanding.
19:19:23 You know, we have a whole Carswell project that's in the department that Heather Thompson is over, but it's so much bigger than that because it's also about, you know, police abolition police, you know, finding new ways of thinking about how we have been
19:19:47 policed and informing students so that they understand that the whole police system we have now comes from the slave patrols, you know, these are things that you're not going to get when you read the newspaper every day.
19:20:02 So, the beauty of that is something that I feel is, you know we're seeing it grow this this this term.
19:20:12 One of our professors taught a class on black fashion talked about you know how, what an impact. Just as musically, that.
19:20:25 Another aspect of our creative culture has always been fashion and adornment. What does that look like. So I think that's what you're speaking to Dre and I think that that's something that is so, so crucial and critical to not always have that heaviness
19:20:44 and that burden that we carry, there is. It provides us an opportunity to really explore and expand that sense of the beauty.
19:21:00 And
19:21:00 I think we're still stuck in black people were slaves and that's you know like when we see you know even now, a lot of the TV shows and movies that are around are some ways related to slavery directly related to slavery, Jim Crow and i think that you
19:21:17 know it's creative in the waist they don't you know they're doing like horror, for example as a genre that we've not necessarily seen as much, but I think again there's still the trauma of it all and there's so much resilience and beauty and just like
19:21:36 I said, amazing this that is black people like this country will be just so raggedy. If it wasn't for black people, and all of the things that we brought to bear in, you know, under oppressive conditions.
19:21:51 And so for me it's about like how do we celebrate those things, how do we tap into black joy.
19:21:58 I'll do we resist and still take care of ourselves at the same time, because we've been doing those things, you know we until we have that history, and how do we ensure that we bring it to bear, as we fight these new battles.
19:22:12 The New Jim Crow and everything else that we have to fight. We need to learn those things and also know that we don't have to be oppressed, all the time like it's okay to be happy.
19:22:26 It's okay to love freely it's okay to just be sometimes and I feel like that so much of the time we're not allowed to do that as black people, because at every turn and every aspect of our life.
19:22:41 Racism is coming to ruin it and being, you know, ran on our parade. And so I think it's up to us to then you know as a intellectual body, as a community, to then figure out how do we sometimes just not let racism have its way.
19:23:02 That's what I'm hoping that we continue to define for ourselves in that in those approaches that we continue to grow and expand upon so that we can live our best lives and thrive as much as possible, regardless of who don't like us because we black.
19:23:21 And I think that just leads me to one other question that I have about we've spoken about cats and dances entities entity.
19:23:30 But, what would you say to the fact that since our inception, we always were diasporic unit, as opposed to a Afro am unit or an African since, since you all have left.
19:23:46 We now have an African Studies Center, that does primarily funding research and other programmatic things, but the fact stands that our curriculum is diasporic in nature.
19:23:59 And what do you think are some of the.
19:24:03 What would you say is important about the fact that it is diet sport, and not just one type of study, one field.
19:24:19 Um, I would say for me I think it's important because we're all fighting the same battle. And I think that one of the tricks that oppressors play in light enough play very well is getting oppressed people to think that there's actions are different.
19:24:39 Our. One is worse than the other, you know, in the fact of the matter is, is that you know it's all the same thing I say all the isms racism, sexism, homophobia ism, you know, our header sexism excuse me homophobia, for example, all of those things are
19:24:57 rooted in white supremacy and patriarchy. And so if you can understand those two systems and what they're designed and intended to do, which is essentially to elevate certain groups, while putting other groups down and you can understand that the struggles
19:25:11 that you face the racism, you know the poverty the economic oppression all of these things that black folks face, whether we're on the continent of Africa, here in North America, South America, somewhere in Southeast Asia.
19:25:29 Like, it's all the same thing. And so when we think about our challenges as black people across the dice dice for all of it has to do with white supremacy and white racism.
19:25:39 And so if we understand that, then we can be collective in our efforts. We can also understand that we're not fighting these this battle alone that some of the tools that have worked to dismantle, you know the Masters houses they say are useful here in
19:25:56 the US, as well as, you know, in other places. And I think you learned that so for example, one of the things I think in cast, one on one 111 Julius his class that he taught.
19:26:08 One of the things that we talked about is the fact that, you know, during the Civil Rights Movement, when that was happening here in the US, you also saw quite a few countries and on the continent, gaining their independence, you also saw you know native
19:26:26 American, and women's rights and gay rights movements, all sort of happening simultaneously, because they were essentially are fighting the same system now whether they recognize it or not, I don't know, but there was a certain synergy that was there
19:26:43 as people were fighting for their rights and asserting their humaneness in the country. And so I think having that diet sport perspective, helps students to understand that this is all connected, that this is all the same system at work.
19:26:59 It may look slightly different depending on where you're at geographically, but essentially was designed to accomplish the same goals, and that's to protect the power and privilege of certain groups of people.
19:27:12 So to me that's the beauty is helping people to understand that this is not some isolated incident, but it is a system, and that it is structural and that we have to think from a structural perspective, if we're really going to undo racism across the
19:27:29 world.
19:27:31 So everything that Andre said, and I, and when you asked that question I just think about, I don't remember who acts Isa read this but you know I didn't give us some award show, and she pretty much was like I'm rooting for everybody black, and that's
19:27:59 how I feel like there is, I think, by having that dies for focus that you then acknowledge we have a connected beginning and a connected future and I think that like Andre said, I'm winning when we don't think that way we lose or we lose out on certain
19:28:03 things. And so, to make sure that we know that yes we might not have been born in the same country but I believe you know we have the same origins. And so how do we make sure that we are staying connected supporting each other lifting each other up because
19:28:17 oftentimes we're the only ones who do it for each other. And how do we have a connected vision for our future, so that we are able to to move forward together so I think it's such an appropriate focus to always have our you know i, it was important to
19:28:35 me that I was not just the African American Studies major I was African American and African Studies. So, just having that dual focus was important to me and definitely broaden my knowledge base.
19:28:48 So something that I, I've always valued that das does
19:28:57 have to say big ups to me Iris the darkest first thought of that.
19:29:01 I have to say big ups to me Iressa darkest first thought of that. And so, I want to thank you so much for spending this time with us and taking time out of your busy schedules. I know how how hard it is, and Andres at the end of the semester and today
19:29:16 you're, you're living in all kinds of worlds multiple, multiple universes
19:29:24 checked out a little bit. I'll be honest about that I'm lying.
19:29:32 Good.
19:29:37 Thank you all. Yes, thank you.
19:29:41 Good, I think, again, like, you know, I really value, my Michigan experience so my, my black Michigan experience, let me say that. And so the opportunity to just really reflect on that and just remind myself of, you know where I'm going because you know
19:29:58 that work that I started as an 18 year old excitable care from Flint it's the same work that I'm now doing 20 years later, with, you know, just bigger impact and so it is helpful to be reminded that the work is ongoing, that it is a marathon because sometimes
19:30:18 it's difficult to stay in the fight, but also remember being reminded that there again are a whole lot of other people who are out there fighting this battle on different fronts.
19:30:42 And so, I appreciate it.
19:30:33 Thank you so much. It's been a real pleasure, getting to meet you and hear your takes it truly has.
19:30:41 I'm just saying all this wonderful message like I also carrying on that legacy to us like your thoughts are the thoughts that I'm having just as a 22 year old and I can't wait to see what they look like when I get to you off place in life.
19:30:58 Absolutely. Oh,
19:31:08 looking gorgeous and whatnot.
19:31:12 Class high school reunion is this year.
19:31:23 that the way she said it it's like down that road down
19:31:33 the road like Dorothy.